Don't Talk to the Police (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#21

Post by kazagistar » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

whamlastxmas wrote: post #11

tzs wrote: post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

It's a matter of the risk you're willing to take. Sometimes refusing to answer a simple question is going to get you arrested. As long as you're willing to risk arrest and expensive lawyers, don't say anything.

Or its a balance between the moral imperative to help and the risk of harm to yourself? Maybe the urgency of a stolen baby is more important to you then fairly small risk of accidental self implication?

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#22

Post by AnodyneComplex » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:07 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #10

So don’t talk to the police. Yet the same people promoting that are against concealed carry and the castle doctrine. So how does one defend themselves and their property if we assume we aren’t supposed to cooperate with police. It’s a serious question — we are supposed to be opposed to self defense because ostensibly police exist to protect us, but then we aren’t supposed to actually talk to police? How does that wor…

The whole point is that it doesn't benefit you, _if you're a potential suspect_ to talk to the police. This shouldn't be a surprise no matter how perfect the justice system is -- it's better to not be involved with it if you can.

I'm not sure why healthcare makes for big government? We already have wildly successful healthcare programs in the US that are government managed and are cheaper than private alternatives. So we should trust the government can provide them because... it does. I wouldn't want the federal government running every pastry shop on the other hand.

I have no idea where concealed carry fits into this.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#23

Post by golergka » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #4

tbqh i'm more worried about being gunned down by the police than being arrested or being searched at this point. exhibit A: https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/939014159726870530 (warning to system-believers: the link contains video of police executing a prone, face down, unarmed, nonviolent, nonresisting, white male; the officer was acquitted)

So, the situation in the video goes like this: (1) police had reason to believe that the man was armed and (2) man made a movement that was looking like he was reaching for a firearm.

Now, what police should do in a situation which combines data points (1) and (2)?

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#24

Post by kazagistar » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

Urgency can change the moral imperative if the situation. When police "just wanna talk", there isn't urgency, so they can wait a bit longer for legal council to arrive, or provide immunity.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#25

Post by Retra » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

As a counter-point... why should we take your word on this over the word of the lawyer(s) in the talk. "Under no circumstances" pretty clearly includes the ones you've given.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#26

Post by Waterluvian » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #7

How far do you take this? For example, suppose you hear someone down the street yell, "My baby!", look up, and see a man shove a woman to the ground, take a baby from a stroller, get into a car with the baby, and drive quickly up the street, leaving behind the woman screaming "He took my baby! Help!". They pass you, and a block farther up turn left onto a freeway on ramp. 30 seconds later a police officer drives by,…

In my mind that question is reframed as, "how much do you look our for others vs. yourself?"

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#27

Post by kazagistar » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:09 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #23

cryoshon wrote: post #4

tbqh i'm more worried about being gunned down by the police than being arrested or being searched at this point. exhibit A: https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/939014159726870530 (warning to system-believers: the link contains video of police executing a prone, face down, unarmed, nonviolent, nonresisting, white male; the officer was acquitted)

So, the situation in the video goes like this: (1) police had reason to believe that the man was armed and (2) man made a movement that was looking like he was reaching for a firearm. Now, what police should do in a situation which combines data points (1) and (2)?

Verify the firearm and attempt a non-lethal solution.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#28

Post by nxc18 » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #10

So don’t talk to the police. Yet the same people promoting that are against concealed carry and the castle doctrine. So how does one defend themselves and their property if we assume we aren’t supposed to cooperate with police. It’s a serious question — we are supposed to be opposed to self defense because ostensibly police exist to protect us, but then we aren’t supposed to actually talk to police? How does that wor…

You’re not supposed to talk to police without the advice of a lawyer. Especially not after you’ve been detained or asked to come down to the station.

You should absolutely trust the police to try to find a suspect to prosecute because that is their job, as currently widely understood.

Also, small clarification: policing in the US has nothing to do with big government generally; there are thousands of police departments and each one is independent of all the others. Maybe the FBI counts as ‘big fovernment’, but they certainly aren’t your everyday police officers.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#29

Post by orangecat » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:11 PM UTC

sherjilozair wrote: post #12

cryoshon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imagine a man face down on the ground with his hands behind his head and his legs crossed in a narrow hallway. the man is sobbing in terror, and drunk. two cops are pointing assault weapons at the man and screaming at him from 20 feet down the hallway. eventually, they shoot him.

Why do they shoot him? Did he move abruptly or something? What should I be doing if I find myself in a similar situation?

In hindsight, I think the only way he could have survived would have been to not move at all. The trigger-happy lunatic was going to shoot him the instant he made any "unexpected" motion, which was inevitable given the confusing and contradictory orders being shouted at him.

Re: Don't Talk to the Police (2012)

#30

Post by digitalengineer » Sat, Dec 09, 2017, 6:13 PM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #4

tbqh i'm more worried about being gunned down by the police than being arrested or being searched at this point. exhibit A: https://twitter.com/ShaunKing/status/939014159726870530 (warning to system-believers: the link contains video of police executing a prone, face down, unarmed, nonviolent, nonresisting, white male; the officer was acquitted)

The question is: When police are holding you at gunpoint, and yelling inconsistent commands at you, and tell you to shut up when you ask for clarification, what are you supposed to do to survive the encounter? Answer: IT doesn't matter. The police are so hyped up, even laying on the ground unconscious can get you killed: 1: Alabama police officers beat an unconscious man who was ejected after a car crash. 2: 3-5 police officers piled up on a skinny kid that can't breathe, let alone move, and still one of them pulls out a gun and shoots him in the head like it's just another Tuesday. 3: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/... (Source Reddit, right now)