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Police Homicides in the United States

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Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#141

Post by danielvf »

I'm wondering about the source data used for this. I looked up the nearest city, and the first two records listed aren't remotely homicides.

In the first, a armed felon killed himself during after an eight hour standoff with the police.

In the second, a man attacked a clerk at a hotel. When police arrived, then man was lying on the floor, bleeding. Police immediately called for medics, but the man became unresponsive and died before fire/medical arrived.

These deaths are both counted as "arrest-related-deaths", which is to say, the actual moment of death was when the police were on scene, but in neither case did the police even use force. I didn't see a place in the article where these kind of situation was excluded. Did I miss something?

[Edit, after more digging into the BJS data, it does contain a homicide flag, which is on about 61% of the records. As long as the OP is filtering by this, it's a good start. But take stats on public police killing websites with a big grain of salt, since these kinds of non-force cases are still included in the top level stats for the sites I checked.]

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#142

Post by ci5er »

stoolpigeon wrote: post #138
ci5er wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Where did you live in the US? I'm in a medium-ish sized metroplex (whatever that means) of about a million people, and I never hear live fire. 2) Why would you worry about a (remote) gun-shot that you heard? By the time you hear it, you will be already shot-or-not. If not - why worry?

I have lived in a number of places - Phoenix, AZ, Chicago, IL, Orlando, FL are probably the spots I spent the most time. When I lived in Glendale, a suburb of Phoenix, the city installed a system that could track gunfire and pinpoint the location for police. I can say I've heard gunfire in every city I've mentioned and called it in to police in those places more than once. I don't even know where to begin with 2. I w…

No - not trolling. Probably just naive.

I've been near the edge of war-zones. Once or twice, in them. But apparently I've missed out on the urban American experience.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#143

Post by emodendroket »

coredog64 wrote: post #122
mitchellberry wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You watched the entire video? It's 5 minutes of conflicting instructions and repeated death threats by a man heavily covered in tattoos carrying an assualt rifle with the words "you're f *ed" engraved on it. How were the multiple police officers incapable of handcuffing the clearly compliant crying victim in 5 whole mins? Am amazed anyone watching that could possibly defend it.

You're missing the context of the encounter. Police were called when someone saw an occupant of the hotel room brandishing a weapon. The responders don't just walk up and cuff the man and woman because they are not sure if these are the armed people and are trying to stay out of a theoretical field of fire from the room. That's not to say this isn't an awful video to watch. The officers scared the guy so much that it…

He also repeatedly gave contradictory or difficult-to-follow instructions.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#144

Post by emodendroket »

ryanlol wrote: post #110
makepanic wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a small note, the person that shouts the instructions is Sgt. Charles Langley but the shooter is Philip “Mitch” Brailsford. via https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/12/0...

Someone ought to make a website naming, shaming and tracking these people. Maybe the courts wont punish them, but it shouldn’t be very hard to ensure that the label of MURDERER will follow them for life.

What effect will that even have on them if police departments don't care?

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#145

Post by emodendroket »

maxxxxx wrote: post #136
michaelt wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if some of the preference for violence in the American policing tradition goes back to Western films - where outlaws are wanted dead or alive, a quick draw is the main thing a lawman needs, and the climax of the film is the lawman meeting the bad man in the street, drawing first and shooting him dead.

You see that also in American action movies where the "good" guy often with joy kills the "bad" guy. You don't see that that much in European movies where a killing situation is often portrayed with more internal conflict.

You can also see quite violent Hong Kong movies with police officers shooting fleeing criminals in crowded public places, but as far as I am aware they don't have the same issues.

One could also easily point to the much higher probability that a criminal has a gun in the United States, although I do not think that that alone is sufficient.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#146

Post by Tomte »

krapp wrote: post #109
Tomte wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, both to that and to policemen‘s fear of simple traffic stops. In most other countries the police officer can encounter a citizen without drawn gun because the odds of the citizen wielding a gun or worse are miniscule. In America even the drawn handgun might not be superior armament.

I'm no fan of the NRA but let's be honest about cause and effect. Fear by the police, the proliferation of firearms in the US and the arms race between the people and the state are all consequences of the Second Amendment of the US Constitution working, arguably, as intended. The NRA didn't cause any of that, although they do make hay of it for their own political and financial ends.

The NRA is the predominant defender of 2nd amendment rights, which is, arguably, the second worst idea of the US constitution (after the extreme formulation of the first amendment).

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#147

Post by Tomte »

sjg007 wrote: post #128
Tomte wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, both to that and to policemen‘s fear of simple traffic stops. In most other countries the police officer can encounter a citizen without drawn gun because the odds of the citizen wielding a gun or worse are miniscule. In America even the drawn handgun might not be superior armament.

Even with all of the guns it is highly unlikely a cop will be shot at during a routine traffic stop. It's highly unlikely to get shot at in general. Risk factors include living in an open carry state (Arizona), heavily tinted windows (the cop can't see in), not being white, and driving a risky car. In this case, while not a traffic stop, the attempted arrest protocol was just stupid and it resulted in his death. That…

You‘re absolutely right that the risk is objectively low. Do officers /perceive/ it as low?

I‘d argue that they would if asked whether they should fear heart attacks more or less than guns on the street, but if you don‘t frame it that way they will probably tell you that of course guns are a real danger.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#148

Post by [deleted] »

danielvf wrote: post #141

I'm wondering about the source data used for this. I looked up the nearest city, and the first two records listed aren't remotely homicides. In the first, a armed felon killed himself during after an eight hour standoff with the police. In the second, a man attacked a clerk at a hotel. When police arrived, then man was lying on the floor, bleeding. Police immediately called for medics, but the man became unresponsive…

[deleted]

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#149

Post by briandear »

ojbyrne wrote: post #107
KGIII wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on why you want to blame the NRA? I should disclose that I own a number of firearms, many of them sidearms, and don't like the NRA very much, nor have I ever donated to them or been a member. I'm just curious as to how you see them as being the source to blame.

I’m not sure what I need to elaborate. The NRA promotes wider gun ownership and more expansive concealed carry. Police use wider ownership of guns and concealed carry to justify more use of deadly force and militarization. In any other country than the US, this feedback loop would be obvious. In the US the NRA works to blur the obvious by talking about “responsible gun owners” while eliding the leakage between respon…

Any data on police shootings of concealed carry permit holders? Also any data on how many concealed carry permit holders actually shoot police?

Hint: practically zero.

Making a correlation between concealed carry and shootings is beyond ridiculous — there is zero data supporting such conclusions.

Re: Police Homicides in the United States

#150

Post by foepys »

sjg007 wrote: post #134
tomalpha wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an excellent, well thought out and well written post. It’s not short but it’s well worth a read. I think he pretty much nails it. He also manages to be reasonably objective which can be tough for someone close to the subject matter. To summarize crudely, through the lens of my own biases and in a way that doesn’t do it justice at all (no really, go read it in full): - Police in Germany don’t have to shoot fir…

It's highly unlikely anyone will shoot at a cop in the USA as well, especially during a traffic stop.

There are enough videos on the internet where exactly this happens to US officers. I don't want to link any because they are often very graphic but you can find one in 10 seconds on youtube.

I dare you to find a single article about something like this from Germany or even the EU.

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