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Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#281

Post by notlob »

thomastjeffery wrote: post #278
takk309 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing preventing you from talking about traffic systems. There are, however, laws preventing you from claiming to be an engineer with expertise in the subject in a public forum.

A man claimed to be an "electrical engineer", and was fined for doing so, because the word "engineer" was taken in context to mean "traffic engineer", which is a licensed title. The issue I take to this is that you must have a recognized title to claim knowledge. This has two problems: 1. People outside of a group of recognition have unnecessary difficulty giving input. This degrades the "public" aspect of the forum.…

Electrical Engineer is also a licensed profession.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#282

Post by thomastjeffery »

notlob wrote: post #273
thomastjeffery wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Medical Doctor must have specific training to not harm their patients. An Engineer designs functional things. No reasonable person is going to think that him calling himself an "Electrical Engineer", which he is, construes that he had specific training in designing traffic infrastructure that doesn't accidentally harm people. Traffic infrastructure is not a nuanced topic full of dangerous pitfalls. He was claiming…

This misses my point. My point is that while I am a "doctor" I am not a physician, and that even though I use the title in other places it's prudent to be very careful about it in a medical setting because it could be misconstrued. Perhaps it would be prudent to demonstrate similar care when addressing the government organization that cares very much about licensing engineers while one is using the industrial exempti…

> Perhaps it would be prudent to demonstrate similar care when addressing the government organization that cares very much about licensing engineers.

I disagree.

In this scenario, the state has redefined the meaning of "engineer" in a way that is very detrimental.

A Medical Doctor or physician implies with his or her title, authority to practice.

The word "engineer" does not carry this implication, nor should it.

When I tell people that I am a "Software Engineer", I am expressing years of self-education, nuanced understanding, etc. This title is not misconstrued as having a degree or license, of which I have neither. If I want to claim to have a degree, I will be explicit about it.

Calling myself an "engineer" is a very useful way to express the complicated body of knowledge that I possess. If the word suddenly implies credentials, of which I do not possess, I am suddenly considered a fraud.

TL;DR You can consider me a fraud by redefining what an "engineer" is, but that doesn't make me one, so please don't redefine engineer. That does not help discourse.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#283

Post by czep »

phil21 wrote: post #206
czep wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the 20% that don't, I flip them off every time, since they fucking deserve it. Man, that's harsh! If these victims of yours are doing 45 on the interstate then a flash and a honk is certainly in order, but I sincerely hope you're not acting this way to people doing 75 when you want to be doing 90. In any case, if someone's going a little slower than you, as long as it's not jeapordizing your safety (i.e. backin…

> I sincerely hope you're not acting this way to people doing 75 when you want to be doing 90. Rate of speed is irrelevant. If you are not actively passing a vehicle, you have zero reason to be in the left lane. This assumes something resembling fairly open roads - stop and go traffic of course is wildly different. What is a safe speed is a different discussion. So many folks have the attitude of "I'm doing 8 over al…

> Rate of speed is irrelevant.

Rate of speed is relevant for two reasons. First, there is a posted speed limit. Second, kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity. All else being equal, an accident at 90mph is going to be far more dangerous than one at 60mph.

> If you are not actively passing a vehicle, you have zero reason to be in the left lane.

The scenario under discussion was all lanes of traffic driving steadily at the limit. In such a scenario, you have zero reason to need to pass anyone. Surely you must agree that all lanes driving the limit is better than forcing everyone in the left lane to move over so that a few people can drive in excess of the limit? Having all lanes utilized at the limit is clearly the most efficient way to generate the most traffic throughput.

> Nevermind they are the most dangerous person on the road as people blow by them in the right lane rightfully pissed off.

Wait, so you're saying it should be acceptable to blow past someone who's already doing 8 over the limit? What are you thinking of, 15 or 20 over the limit? That's ridiculous, you have no "right" to be be rightfully pissed off because you can't drive 20 over the limit!

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#284

Post by whatthesmack »

takk309 wrote: post #251
valuearb wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop trying to use your "registered professional traffic engineer" title as a labor monopoly. It doesn't even mean you are good at your job.

It is not meant to create a labor monopoly any more than a medical doctors licence. Registration as an engineer is so that one can prove that they have the requisite knowledge and competency to perform the work required of them. Without registration, what legal assurances would you have that the engineer is capable of his job?

The same as any other job, like mine as a Site Reliability Engineer? A resume, a degree that can be validated, experience and knowledge that demonstrate competence, references, reputation, etc. Why does the state need to be the official signer-off on who can do a certain job?

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#285

Post by valuearb »

Johnny555 wrote: post #254
valuearb wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People with professional engineering titles are the dregs of the engineering profession, they couldn't get work without certification. So they got it and parade it around like self important dweebs, so that people hopefully won't realize how poorly qualified they actually are.

You are painting a lot of people with a broad brush. I know a number of PE's, (electrical and structural) and they are, as the title says, Professional. They engineer 100 million dollar projects, the aren't just someone pretending to know what they are doing. You're right that "they couldn't get work without certification" but that's because such certification is required for the work they do, it's not some way for t…

I'm all for private certification processes. If they have value customers will prefer and even require them.

I'm totally against attempts at labor monopolies by using government to curtail other peoples right to work, and their free speech. Beyond those problems, there is an inherent bias in government certification programs. They are frequently captured by their participants and their standards change over time to focus on excluding outsiders over improving the value of certification. They often become insular and processes become dated.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#286

Post by valuearb »

takk309 wrote: post #251
valuearb wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop trying to use your "registered professional traffic engineer" title as a labor monopoly. It doesn't even mean you are good at your job.

It is not meant to create a labor monopoly any more than a medical doctors licence. Registration as an engineer is so that one can prove that they have the requisite knowledge and competency to perform the work required of them. Without registration, what legal assurances would you have that the engineer is capable of his job?

It's main purpose is to create a labor monopoly, just as doctors licenses are.

And there is zero legal assurance that a Professional Engineer or a Medical Doctor can do their jobs competently.

Certifications are fine, if done by private organizations. Those certifications have to prove their value in the marketplace, to customers, or they'll become worthless.

When the boot heel of government is used to give certifications the force of law is when they run off the rails, and allow small groups to impose arbitrary rules to exclude valuable practitioners.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#287

Post by mirimir »

mywittyname wrote: post #253
drewmol wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seeing some interesting POV's on thread (and some road rage issues) but I'm genuinely curious: if the speed limit plays no part in the equation... Let's say I'm traveling ~85 in the left most lane while passing cars in the center lane traveling ~60(posted max speed). Car behind me approaches going 200. Should I be expected to slow down to 60 and force a merge to center lane in order to yeild to the girl going 200…

You should move into the center lane when it is clear to do so and continue in that lane until the need arises to pass someone. I don't understand why people want to pick fights with other people while driving. A person traveling way too fast is clearly does care about acting dangerously, why the hell would you want to aggravate that person? The best outcome is nothing happens, the worst outcome is your death. Plus,…

> A person traveling way too fast is clearly does care about acting dangerously, why the hell would you want to aggravate that person?

Back before speed cameras, it was useful to aggravate such folk, just a little, so they would speed up. If you gamed it right, you could set up a little convoy, and sit in the middle. At night, you would watch for brake lights ahead, and flashing lights behind.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#288

Post by valuearb »

bredren wrote: post #234
valuearb wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop trying to use your "registered professional traffic engineer" title as a labor monopoly. It doesn't even mean you are good at your job.

I’m sure the professional traffic engineers association would have strong words in reply to your comment.

Of course they would, it's the association's job to prevent their work to exclude others from their business being exposed.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#289

Post by thomastjeffery »

notlob wrote: post #281
thomastjeffery wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A man claimed to be an "electrical engineer", and was fined for doing so, because the word "engineer" was taken in context to mean "traffic engineer", which is a licensed title. The issue I take to this is that you must have a recognized title to claim knowledge. This has two problems: 1. People outside of a group of recognition have unnecessary difficulty giving input. This degrades the "public" aspect of the forum.…

Electrical Engineer is also a licensed profession.

For good reasons.

You don't want someone to wire your house improperly, because non-trivial things like kinked cables can end up starting fires later on.

To say that you are an electrical engineer does not carry weight.

To say you can do electrical work because you are an electrical engineer implies that you have credentials. This is because "can" changes the context of the statement. "can" implies authority.

There is such thing as an unlicensed electrical engineer. That is because "electrical engineer" alone does not imply authority.

There are positions that do imply authority, like MD, EMT, Police Officer, and electrical engineer is not one of them.

Re: Oregon punished an engineer for criticizing red-light cameras. He fought and won

#290

Post by slantyyz »

valuearb wrote: post #226
slantyyz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> He is an engineer, changing the title as you suggest makes it sound like he isn't. Is he really though? He has an engineering education, but in Oregon he's not officially an engineer. In a lot of jurisdictions, you can't call yourself an engineer unless you've been certified by the professional body. A Canadian politician had to apologize for calling himself an engineer because he was no longer certified [1]. I ge…

He's officially an engineer. A jurisdiction can't change that. Words can't be protected by law. It's called freedom of speech.

Words are protected by the law all the time, especially as it relates to copyright/trademarks, commerce, certain professions and consumer protection.
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