Outbound sales is a very good way to gain insights into the needs of your potential customers (What are you missing, are messing bad etc.). I can really recommend creating a culture where the Sales team has a good way to report their findings. They are the first line of (new) customer interactions.
Learn to sell
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Re: Learn to sell
#12Does anyone have any book suggestions for an engineer who wants to learn sales / convincing people? Do you recommend doing trial by fire and getting a sales job? I've realized that I am good at the technicals but terrible at selling why people should do what I say.
First, read Dale Carnegie’s “How to win friends and influence people.” Don’t let the cheesy title turn you off. The book is tremendous and a fun read and has been a literal best seller continuously since it was written more than 50 years ago.
Re: Learn to sell
#13The life of an engineer is a life if sacrifice and 7 days a week work for five days pay. Often you never have a partner so you're the most highly taxed people in the country especially in California. While you often work triple time you're rarely if ever paid for overtime it's taken for granted that you're not ever compensated for 3/4 of the hours you work. Nothing can happen without you but sales people get a piece…
Your situation sounds shitty. It shouldn't be that way; I hope you're able to find time to step back over the holidays. A company shouldn't treat you like that, perhaps another one would be better.
Sales is no picnic though. I know it looks like a bunch of high-fiving frat boys talking sports metaphors and rarely coming to work, but the reality is very, very tough. Different challenges to engineering, for sure, but very real challenges and in some ways more acute.
In sales you're directly responsible for the money the company brings in. You have a number over your head. You are _gone_ the second you miss it. If you don't make your number, other people can lose their jobs too.
There are no breaks, no rest, no pause for enjoying the satisfaction in a job well done. If you think sales people don't work evenings and weekends you are out of your mind - when else do you get time to write proposals and draft contracts? When do you travel? You can't take a client, who you might not even like, for dinner during the 9-5 day.
You are on call all the time; the second an on-site engineer says something stupid to a client you are called, you have to deal with it, smooth it over, fix the damage to the relationship.
And turning the master build red doesn't even come close to a fraction of a hint of the stress that comes when you're close to losing a vital client and you've got the owners of the company breathing down your neck. Relationships aren't like code: once broken, you can't git reset and try again. And it takes so little to torpedo a major client.
Re: Learn to sell
#14Does anyone have any book suggestions for an engineer who wants to learn sales / convincing people? Do you recommend doing trial by fire and getting a sales job? I've realized that I am good at the technicals but terrible at selling why people should do what I say.
First, read Dale Carnegie’s “How to win friends and influence people.” Don’t let the cheesy title turn you off. The book is tremendous and a fun read and has been a literal best seller continuously since it was written more than 50 years ago.
I re-read (re-listen-to) this book every 3 or so months. Every time I do, I find myself thinking "why did it take me so long to go through this book again?"
It's an incredible help, especially in a profession that's stereotypically short on interpersonal skills. It's too easy for me to convince myself that those skills matter less. This book always reminds me how important it is to not always be blunt. Honest is great, blunt is not always helpful.
Re: Learn to sell
#15Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know where you work, but here (Montreal) it is seen poorly to work outside of the 9 to 5 range. Even in California, there is no doubt you can find 9-5 jobs where you can chill in the weekends. Work/Life balance is important. Also, if you work for worthless options, nothing is stopping you from switching jobs/asking for a different comp
Not to derail the discussion but what is the job market like in Montreal?
it's awesome. everyone I know has a good job, without really searching
Re: Learn to sell
#16tl;dr - Most of the article tries to justify why it's important to Learn to sell.
Actionable guidance:
"cold calling, sending tons of emails, doing prospect/company research and developing cold leads into warm ones"
and get a job in sales ("role", "experience", "career").
My personal project is a Chinese learning page.
I tried sending hundreds of emails, researching all the Chinese language centres in Taiwan to find contact email addresses for the department, and sometimes even the direct email addresses for the tutors. I wrote a short email explaining what my program does, and how it's helping me learn.
Nobody replied.
I made a YouTube video as an example of what it can do. I posted on Facebook, where my 3900 friends (who I all met face to face) mostly ignored it (29 likes).
I submitted it as a Show HN. Nobody up-voted it.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14907618
Can anybody give more helpful instructions?
I'm using Pingtype to read the Bible and song lyrics all the time, and my Chinese is improving - after failing with 9 other methods before.
https://pingtype.github.io/docs/blog.html#failing
I really get discouraged by the lack of interest though, and the "trial by fire" of being ignored by the world is really depressing. For me there's no "uncertainty being on a quota compensation plan" - I would certainly be broke.
Re: Learn to sell
#17Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't know where you work, but here (Montreal) it is seen poorly to work outside of the 9 to 5 range. Even in California, there is no doubt you can find 9-5 jobs where you can chill in the weekends. Work/Life balance is important. Also, if you work for worthless options, nothing is stopping you from switching jobs/asking for a different comp
Not to derail the discussion but what is the job market like in Montreal?
On the employer side: Pretty tight, hard to find talent.
On the employee side: It's good. Salary are OK considering the decent cost of living. The AI boom is helping bringing more options for smart and qualified people.
Feel free to email me if you have more questions, know some companies that are looking ;)
Re: Learn to sell
#18Does anyone have any book suggestions for an engineer who wants to learn sales / convincing people? Do you recommend doing trial by fire and getting a sales job? I've realized that I am good at the technicals but terrible at selling why people should do what I say.
The Way of the Wolf by Jordan Belfort (the wolf of wall street).
Jordan has a lot youtube clips with his live seminars of upto 10 episodes - 90 minutes each.
Disclaimer: Not in sales, but have great sense of appreciation for rain-makers.
Re: Learn to sell
#19The article makes some valid points, but sales/marketing is just not for me.
I understand how important it is for my product, but I just don't enjoy it, and would rather pay someone else to do it for me.
Essentially, I would need a Jobs for my Woz, if I can ever aspire to be a Woz. :)
Re: Learn to sell
#20This is really important. I love programming and am somewhat introverted, but being newlywed with a wife who couldn't work (visa), a mortgage, and a commission plan really made me learn to sell. The really good salespeople aren't deceptive, and I luckily learned from them.
Also: if you're at a good company the engineers don't scorn the sales people (instead: "you guys bring in the money that pays our salaries") and the sales folks actually sell the product to people who will benefit from it.