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The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

theguardian.com

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Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#381

Post by dragonwriter »

EdSharkey wrote: post #374
dragonwriter wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is cultural Marxism. No, it's actually Marxism losing relevance in favor of something radically different, but in any case it's fairly irrelevant to the Democratic Party which never generally adopted a ”New Left” position, following classical moderate, non-Marxist pro-labor focus into the 80s, then abandoning that and anything like the Left generally for the center-right neoliberalism of Clinton's “Third Way”.

Bill Clinton was a centrist, and that's part of why I think he was so popular as president. I had not considered what you say as a possibility. I always thought the Marxists were the real power in the Democratic party and they implemented their policies slowly and incrementally. Does neoliberalism really hold sway in the Democratic party and what I considered incremental marxism was really just left-of-center Clinton…

> I always thought the Marxists were the real power in the Democratic party

The most powerful faction in the Democratic Party are center-right neoliberals like the Clintons, the next most powerful are center-left Social Democrats (including what passes in the US, but not really by international standards, for “Democratic Socialists”.) There are essentially no Marxists in influential roles in the Party. There's probably a few Marxists (or Leninists/Stalinist/Maoists) in the electorate that hold their nose and vote for Democrats as, from their perspective, the very slightly lesser of two evils (and probably some who vote for Republicans as the greater evil in hopes of provoking revolution), but they aren't really driving the party, either by having their hands on levers of power or being an actively courted constituency.

> Does neoliberalism really hold sway in the Democratic party and what I considered incremental marxism was really just left-of-center Clintonian politics?

The first, yes, the second...well, insofar as it is not Marxist, sure.

> How does the constant ratcheting up of identity politics stuff fit in to your theory, though?

While there are Left forms of identity politics, other-than-proletarian-identity politics are not Marxist even when they are somewhere on the Left, though the practitioners (even among right-wing identity politics) may draw something from Marxist (or Leninist) tactics or analytical modes (Marx's adaptation of Hegelian dialectic is widely influential in this way), but this doesn't make the movements involved politically Marxist.

And while the Democratic Party does include some who pursue Left forms of identity politics, it predominantly pursued bourgeois feminism and the similar bourgeois versions of other group-rights movements, rather than any of the Left (for instance, radical, socialist, or Marxist) versions.

While to anti-feminists (etc.) the distinction may seem irrelevant, it's actually quite critical to leftists of all stripes.

Bourgeois identity politics (and the fairly overt rejection of Left identity politics) is a fairly key part of Clintonian Third Wayism.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#382

Post by JBlue42 »

grasshopperpurp wrote: post #362
JBlue42 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see them presenting it in a negative, just a fact, and one not understood in rural areas. If you believe in wealth distribution, then richer coastal or urban areas should help out their brethren in the rural areas and spread the money around. It's when those rural brethren then attack the better off coastal / urban folks as stealing their money that things become problematic.

Don't forget that red (more rural) states also receive political welfare in the form of the electoral college, so their misguided views carry more weight.

Good point.

And then complain about being the neglected or down-trodden ones.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#383

Post by bluGill »

coliveira wrote: post #229
bluGill wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't just a mindset, it is supported by their accountant. Because of the way depreciation works their long term income is higher by buying new equipment than paying taxes. The busiest week for farm equipment dealers is the week between Christmas and new years. That is when their account calls them and says trading in some machine would reduce their tax bill by more than the payments! Assuming the trade in value i…

But this is not necessarily a good thing. If you don't need a new truck, buying that truck is worse than paying the taxes and getting some profit. The truck will be sitting there unused and it cannot be resold for the full price paid.

Is it though? a new truck is going to be reliable and under warranty. A farmer cannot afford for his equipment to break. The truck being broke means that he cannot get fuel trailer to the equipment. That means that the tractors spend 2 hours every day driving back and forth to the fuel tanks on the farm to refuel - time that is not spent in the field. The truck being broke for just 2 days can cost the farmer more money than the entire cost of a new truck. (if storm wipes out any crop not harvested)

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#384

Post by bluGill »

Malician wrote: post #290
softawre wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, two comments up mentioned deprecation. Maybe you're forgetting that you can offset deprecation in your taxes for the next year?

Deduction, not credit. Deductions aren't nothing, but they're just a percentage. Good if you're already going to spend the money, or if it's close. But spending a dollar to save a fraction of one can bite you.

Once again, the accounts have already figure this out. Depreciation in terms of taxes does not me the loss of trade in value. I do not understand the tax code, I just know accountants do

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#385

Post by kfcm »

mistermann wrote: post #300
kfcm wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow! I wish I could have gotten that price for my corn last year. You quoted the price for beans, not corn. Corn averaged 3.40 over the year (currently, around $3.05 cash, not CBOT). That means it was about $640/acre for income. And that's assuming 203 bushels for all farmland. 180 is a better rule of thumb. Of course, when a bag of seed corn is selling for $275-300+...not to mention input costs of equipment, fuel, f…

As someone who obviously knows the business, what's your take on the price of land, based on historic prices and on economics?

Just saw this.

As my late dad and other old timers said a few years ago, the price of land is tied to the price of corn. Land values (both purchase and cash rent) have fallen the past year or two from their high, slowly but steadily. From a pure numbers standpoint, land prices are still high relative to corn prices, I'd say about 2x as high as some historical years at this corn price (plus historical inflation). I'd like to see it down around $5K/acre in my area.

But there are other factors in the cost too, and that is how much people are willing to pay for land. And guys are still willing to pay for it at this level, although not as many as before. There's still profitability, if you play your cards right. But that's a whole other analysis.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#386

Post by EdSharkey »

dragonwriter wrote: post #381
EdSharkey wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Clinton was a centrist, and that's part of why I think he was so popular as president. I had not considered what you say as a possibility. I always thought the Marxists were the real power in the Democratic party and they implemented their policies slowly and incrementally. Does neoliberalism really hold sway in the Democratic party and what I considered incremental marxism was really just left-of-center Clinton…

> I always thought the Marxists were the real power in the Democratic party The most powerful faction in the Democratic Party are center-right neoliberals like the Clintons, the next most powerful are center-left Social Democrats (including what passes in the US, but not really by international standards, for “Democratic Socialists”.) There are essentially no Marxists in influential roles in the Party. There's probab…

> The most powerful faction in the Democratic Party are center-right neoliberals like the Clintons, the next most powerful are center-left Social Democrats (including what passes in the US, but not really by international standards, for “Democratic Socialists”.)

My gut tells me your assessment is wrong - that the Clintonian Third Wayism you describe is waning - chiefly evidenced by Obama being so much further to the left and comparatively weak/confused on foreign policy as compared with the Clintons. Maybe I place too much weight on the presidency and not enough on Congress. I admit to being largely ignorant about how center-right or left-leaning the congressional Democrat's policy positions actually are.

> it predominantly pursued bourgeois feminism and the similar bourgeois versions of other group-rights movements, rather than any of the Left (for instance, radical, socialist, or Marxist) versions.

That the Democratic Party embraces identity politics was my impression as well. I can see by your explanation how that doesn't require marxist tendencies to work. I still don't agree with dividing people into groups and pitting them against one another, though. But at least I see the differences in motive, so thanks for explaining that.

> Bourgeois identity politics (and the fairly overt rejection of Left identity politics) is a fairly key part of Clintonian Third Wayism.

I can see that as well, which was my confusion! I wish the Clintons were better people, there's a lot to like about their philosophy in the abstract.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#387

Post by PatchMonkey »

Gee, I wonder why - small to medium farmers make just enough to get subsidized into almost not backsliding into debt and oblivion.

Then a bad season hits, thanks to climate change. Cant afford food, much less taxes, maybe a mortgage.

Aaaaaaand now we're back to mislabelled sharecropping - or better yet, bottom-dollar buyouts from factory farms that destroy the land, the jobs, and probably your colon, dear reader. Another dust bowl, coming soon!

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#388

Post by dragonwriter »

EdSharkey wrote: post #386
dragonwriter wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always thought the Marxists were the real power in the Democratic party The most powerful faction in the Democratic Party are center-right neoliberals like the Clintons, the next most powerful are center-left Social Democrats (including what passes in the US, but not really by international standards, for “Democratic Socialists”.) There are essentially no Marxists in influential roles in the Party. There's probab…

> The most powerful faction in the Democratic Party are center-right neoliberals like the Clintons, the next most powerful are center-left Social Democrats (including what passes in the US, but not really by international standards, for “Democratic Socialists”.) My gut tells me your assessment is wrong - that the Clintonian Third Wayism you describe is waning - chiefly evidenced by Obama being so much further to the…

> My gut tells me your assessment is wrong - that the Clintonian Third Wayism you describe is waning - chiefly evidenced by Obama being so much further to the left and comparatively weak/confused on foreign policy as compared with the Clintons.

It is waning, as evidenced by how competitive Sanders was in the primary and how popular Sanders remains, though the neoliberal faction is still dominant; but Obama wasn't significantly further to the left than Clinton (not was his administration nearly as weak and fumbling on substantive foreign policy as the Clinton administration, not that that, in either direction, says anything about the dominance of Third Wayism.)

> That the Democratic Party embraces identity politics was my impression as well.

So, incidentally, has the Republican Party for a long time. Christian identity politics, obviously for quite a long time, but also since the Southern Strategy White identity politics (with a sharp uptick recently in n how overt and direct their appeals on both are.)

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#389

Post by Crespyl »

happy-go-lucky wrote: post #55

Farming is irreplaceable as of now. I don't want it to be replaceable, do you?.

Replaceable with what?

Some lab-based process that produces the same products at the same volume with less impact on the land?

Would that be such a bad thing?

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#390

Post by avs733 »

mohaine wrote: post #271
moduspol wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, but then you've now got $30,000 in depreciation toward next year's taxes!

Farmers often take 100% depreciation on a new purchase. So for tax purposes they lost 150k and do not have an asset worth 150k sitting around. Now if they sell the tractor they have to pay taxes on the full sale price as profit since it was previously worth zero.

Which, because of their mindset about taxes, hurts the resale market for tractors and allows manufacturers to overprice new sales.
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