$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology • Hacker News Board

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#251

Post by jonstewart » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 7:10 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #200

jonstewart wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever heard of induced demand? More roads and bridges are not the answer, especially since the associated capital costs could go a long ways towards fixing Metro and thereby provide greater utility. Northern Virginia has some of the absolute dumbest land use policies and traffic planning of anywhere in the nation. It's reaping what it's sown with traffic congestion. This is a big step in the right direction.…

> Have you ever heard of induced demand? That is not what happens. The effect they're measuring is that a road gets congested, the congestion suppresses the natural demand, and if you expand the road to reduce the congestion then more of the natural demand comes back and there is still more congestion than you expected. But the same applies to any of the alternatives. If you build more housing in the metro area then…

DC's been on a building spree and rents have stabilized, maybe even decreased a bit. In the greater Metro area, there are four fundamental problems: 1) new housing and jobs are placed too far away from Metro; 2) Metro is severely under-capitalized due to a lack of a dedicated funding source, so they can't undertake the projects they need to restore the level of service that was unsustainably enjoyed in the late 90s/early 00s; 3) we haven't prioritized bus service with BRT, transit ways, dedicated bus lanes, etc., to serve as a middle tier between cars and Metro; 4) DC lacks autonomy from Congress and Congress has explicitly forbade DC from enacting anything that resembles a commuter tax. If we tolled every car coming into DC (NYC and SF have tolls on their bridges and tunnels), that could be a nice funding stream for mass transit projects; but we can't simply because of Congress.

#1 is probably the overall most important factor. See https://ggwash.org/view/65596/the-best-way-improve-transport..., and check out the link to the actual study report.

There's also an exacerbating problem, especially within DC's boundaries, that the rise of Uber and Lyft at the same time Metro has taken a nose-dive means an individual can be better off using ride-hailing instead of using mass transit, but it puts more cars on the street and makes street-level congestion horrible. Hopefully DC's DDOT will start carving out dedicated bus lanes so that many DC residents are assured better commutes through bus than through ride-hailing.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#252

Post by Retric » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 7:14 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #250

Retric wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congestion already has it's own price directly in increased travel time. Which pushes people to use optimal routes to a destination. However, routing around congestion increases pollution via trip length. So you want to increase peoples ability to go from A > B, not hinder peopling moving from A > B with increased cost. PS: We want higher mileage people to get electric cars, so having no transit tax actually efficien…

> Congestion already has it's own price > directly in increased travel time. Which is clearly not enough, as detailed in the article. If people only had to pay with their own time they would, and the road would be congested, hence the high toll. This is basic supply & demand. You just keep asserting that people should pay for their pollution, I agree! But that's not always the maximum price you should pay. > charge b…

> Which is clearly not enough, as detailed in the article.

40$ is actually close to the market rate of time saved for a large percentage of people driving on that road. So, you might not think costs that don't evenly map to dollars as equivalent, but clearly the market disagrees.

> around in circles on a private track.

Easily tracked and an exception could be made, but most people would not feel the savings as worth the effort. Remember laws are thousands of pages long first and second order objections can easily be included.

PS: In effect every road in the US is a toll road, you might not agree with the prices and exceptions but people still pay billions.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#253

Post by jonstewart » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 7:23 PM UTC

xtreme wrote: post #211

jonstewart wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever heard of induced demand? More roads and bridges are not the answer, especially since the associated capital costs could go a long ways towards fixing Metro and thereby provide greater utility. Northern Virginia has some of the absolute dumbest land use policies and traffic planning of anywhere in the nation. It's reaping what it's sown with traffic congestion. This is a big step in the right direction.…

I never understood this argument against more roads/bridges. Even if there is no improvement in latency (travel times), isn't the increase in throughput (number of people traveling) and the associated economic benefit worth it?

In addition to the counterintuitive traffic congestion stuff, you also have to consider cost. Bridges ain't cheap. Metro isn't either... but you could make a lot of improvements to Metro for the price of a bridge.

The 7000 series has fortunately been a godsend for Metro. Now it just needs a miracle for each of: power supply, rail insulators, water leaks, automated control, and the union contract/pension.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#254

Post by nwrk » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 7:30 PM UTC

CodesInChaos wrote: post #74

nwrk wrote: post #52

Can it be cheaper if you drive faster ? ie. 45mph = $40 ie. 80mph = $30 ie. 100mph = $6 (for contrast) et cetera ? That would make traffic flow and people happy ? Not US driver, don't know the US speed limits. On oposite side, Germany doesn't have speed limits on some tolls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Keep in mind that the safety distance you have to the preceding driver increases with speed. Additionally the large speed differential between cars leads to more frequent lane changes, acceleration and breaking, etc. Which hinders the flow of traffic, reducing throughput. In Germany it's common to use electronic signs to limit speed when the highway is (moderately) congested to help traffic flow more smoothly, increa…

Valid points. Thank you. Was just stupid 'why not' late night thoughts.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#255

Post by Tinyyy » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 7:42 PM UTC

grasshopperpurp wrote: post #164

Tinyyy wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the rules remain the same for everyone: if you want to use the road and don’t want to carpool, you pay.

If you make $550 per day, $40 is 7% of your daily income; if you make $82 per day, it's 49%. That's not the same for everyone. Of course, there are people who make well more than $550 per day and people who make significantly less than $82 per day. ($200,000/365=$550; $30,000/365=$82)

By that logic, almost every single rule in this world is 'unfair' towards the poor, because of course things cost disproportionately more for the poor.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#256

Post by gji » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

Demoneeri wrote: post #222

closeparen wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not a lack of urban planning; there's an urban planning (and popular) consensus "lack of vertical density" == "quality of life."

Density =/= high rise. Lots of 3-5-story building mix with townhouses creates the density you need with a human-size feel.

Cambridge (MA) is like this, but housing prices are still pretty unreasonable. You definitely need taller buildings.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#257

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

mattmcknight wrote: post #145

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I'm curious how they use the money from the $40 toll." The article says that it is being used to fund new construction: "This is what transportation costs!" "The real reason there's sticker shock is that the real cost of road transportation is hidden from most voters. Gas tax money goes to states and the US Department of Transportation which flows back as what seems like free federal money to build a lot of roads.…

It's not true. The road had a planned expansion to go to 4 lanes in each direction in 1977. It was blocked by Arlington County, and the only new construction they've done for 40 years is extending the exit lanes. It's so ridiculously under the needed capacity that all of the canards about not being able to build your way out of traffic don't apply.

> "It's not true. The road had a planned expansion to go to 4 lanes in each direction in 1977..."

Doesn't matter that it was planned a long time ago and blocked. Regardless of how or when it was initially built, the cost to build it has to be compensated somehow.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#258

Post by slededit » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 9:15 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #67

rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

Usually yes, but when one or a few suppliers are the sole source of a resource it’s not that simple. Especially when that resource is very widely used for a huge variety of applications. That’s becaus the benefit to society isn’t simple captured in the monetary cost. Consider police vehicles, ambulances and utility maintenance vehicles. Does anybody really think they should have to pay tolls? A real market forces pur…

While it varies there are toll bridges and roads where emergency vehicles must pay. It helps that they are electronic tolls where the vehicle does not have to stop.

Here's the infamous Tacoma Narrows Bridge as an example: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Even-police-cars-ambu...

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#259

Post by em3rgent0rdr » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 9:16 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #245

harryh wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here is that you are prioritizing using "the fast lane in a floating price system" as the most important thing when for a lot of people that will not be the case. They might rather spend that money on housing, or education or chewing gum or who the hell knows what. The utility maximizing choice it to let them make their own decision as they know more about their preferences than you do. You making that deci…

(op) I don't know why the downvotes, you make valid points. I think what you say is true, but not in the context of this specific scenario. This scenario starts with a public good that is freely available to all. In the free-for-all, everyone has equal access to the good. The total value of that is somewhat diminished in theory, because the lack of a price system causes overconsumption ... traffic jams. In the price…

> "Maybe you earn fast lane credits for taking the slow lane"

This does nothing to help fund roads or alleviate congestion.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#260

Post by slededit » Thu, Dec 07, 2017, 9:18 PM UTC

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #257

mattmcknight wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not true. The road had a planned expansion to go to 4 lanes in each direction in 1977. It was blocked by Arlington County, and the only new construction they've done for 40 years is extending the exit lanes. It's so ridiculously under the needed capacity that all of the canards about not being able to build your way out of traffic don't apply.

> "It's not true. The road had a planned expansion to go to 4 lanes in each direction in 1977..." Doesn't matter that it was planned a long time ago and blocked. Regardless of how or when it was initially built, the cost to build it has to be compensated somehow .

Interstate expansion comes from the national highway fund. Arlington blocking it has little to do with the cost.