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Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

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Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#81

Post by dragonwriter »

notzorbo3 wrote: post #11
SapphireSun wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this question is only answerable with specific numbers. If UBI = $1 / person, then the difference in pressure is small. Also, you presume that people only work for money. I think with UBI, you'd see a revitalization of community oriented, but low profit pursuits.

> If UBI = $1 / person, then the difference in pressure is small. The pressure might be small, but it's still there. The €1 still has to come from somewhere. > Also, you presume that people only work for money. I think with UBI, you'd see a revitalization of community oriented, but low profit pursuits. How are low-profit pursuits going to pay for everybody's UBI? You can't heavily tax low-profit pursuits.

> How are low-profit pursuits going to pay for everybody's UBI?

They aren't. Any functional Basic Income is going to be funded by taxes that effectively fall on capital, whether directly or via taxes on business income, and be self-limited based on productivity.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#82

Post by dragonwriter »

notzorbo3 wrote: post #25
delecti wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of UBI is that not everybody needs to work. It's not that everybody will move towards low-profit pursuits it's that otherwise unemployed people will. The taxes will come from the same places they are expected to: automation increasingly taking over the creation of most of the wealth in society. We'll see if it works in practice, but that's the theory.

It seems everybody has different goals for UBI. Getting unemployed people to work is not one I've encountered before I think. I fail to see how giving everybody free money is going to get unemployed people to work. For them, nothing changes. > The taxes will come from the same places they are expected to: automation increasingly taking over the creation of most of the wealth in society. I think this is the "lets tax…

> It seems everybody has different goals for UBI. Getting unemployed people to work is not one I've encountered before I think.

It's one of the most common I've seen cited by both left- and right-leaning UBI proponents.

> I fail to see how giving everybody free money is going to get unemployed people to work. For them, nothing changes.

For the unemployed, two critical things change compared to existing policy in a typical UBI scheme funded primarily by additional taxes on capital income and very high non-citizenship income, with little change in the taxation of income at most lower levels:

(1) Additional income from work is not offset by benefit reductions as in current unemployment/welfare programs.

(2) Minimum wage is eliminated or reduced due to the reliance on UBI to provide all or part of a livable income, increasing potential (re-)entry opportunities to the labor market.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#83

Post by CaptSpify »

ameister14 wrote: post #38
CaptSpify wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't complaining about UBI, you are complaining about taxes (yes, I get how they are related, but they aren't the same thing). We've long ago decided that we as a society are OK with taxes. If you don't want to pay them, go somewhere that doesn't make you pay them.

No, no he isn't. There is a difference between paying taxes so that the government can provide services and an A-B transfer. For example, the government can, in some situations, seize land. The government is not generally allowed to then give that land to other citizens. There have been a couple of cases that came close to that, and if you read the majority opinions on them you'll see the logical foundations.

I fail to see how UBI isn't a service. It's using a made-up system (money), to make sure that people have viable options in life.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced UBI is the way we should go, but I genuinely don't see the difference between that and any other service.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#84

Post by CaptSpify »

sbjustin wrote: post #43
CaptSpify wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't complaining about UBI, you are complaining about taxes (yes, I get how they are related, but they aren't the same thing). We've long ago decided that we as a society are OK with taxes. If you don't want to pay them, go somewhere that doesn't make you pay them.

You are mistaken. We as a society have agreed to pay taxes for certain things. As defined in the constitution, some are the post office and raising a military. We pay taxes and expect to get X in return. Your argument is comparable to saying we've as a society accepted we pay for food. What we get in return for whatever we pay is not part of the equation. I won't pay $40 for a fast food burger.

> Your argument is comparable to saying we've as a society accepted we pay for food. What we get in return for whatever we pay is not part of the equation. I won't pay $40 for a fast food burger.

I fail to see how I said anything like that. Can you expand?

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#85

Post by jandrese »

ameister14 wrote: post #77
jandrese wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean the Guilded Age and the leadup to the Great Depression? Where we were only finally dug out of the hole when the government started taxing the rich at rates that most people would be shocked about today? https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Inco...

The Gilded Age and the Industrial Revolution, yes. Not really the leadup to the Great Depression, which has very little to do with the Gilded Age and a great deal to do with credit developments, widespread corruption in government and banking and a general productive leap. If you choose to believe that the US was somehow in a hole for 80 years despite growing massively economically and becoming the banking and invest…

We paid off two World Wars with those taxes. Those times coincided with the creation of the middle class as we know it today. The fact that the US exploded onto the world stage at the same time should provide some hope to people who worry that high taxes will prevent growth and stifle business. Granted, the US was filling a power vacuum left after Europe tore itself apart, but it's still showing that strong growth and high tax rates aren't mutually exclusive, and in fact may be correlated.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#87

Post by ameister14 »

jandrese wrote: post #85
ameister14 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Gilded Age and the Industrial Revolution, yes. Not really the leadup to the Great Depression, which has very little to do with the Gilded Age and a great deal to do with credit developments, widespread corruption in government and banking and a general productive leap. If you choose to believe that the US was somehow in a hole for 80 years despite growing massively economically and becoming the banking and invest…

We paid off two World Wars with those taxes. Those times coincided with the creation of the middle class as we know it today. The fact that the US exploded onto the world stage at the same time should provide some hope to people who worry that high taxes will prevent growth and stifle business. Granted, the US was filling a power vacuum left after Europe tore itself apart, but it's still showing that strong growth an…

I was mostly talking about the explosive growth in the US between 1850 and 1910, and referring to the fact that nobody in high brackets actually paid those rates as real tax rates.

There were so many write-offs and loopholes then that it was more a sop to the working class to let them believe the rich were paying for things.

Yes, it is possible to have strong growth with high nominal income tax rates - it's also possible to have strong growth WITHOUT high income taxes. The point you made that I objected to most strongly was the idea that income taxes were absolutely necessary to prevent recessions and were the main cause of growth. That hasn't been proven by history and I would say has been soundly disproven.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#88

Post by rev_bird »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #75
ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you break that down a little more? I'm having trouble connecting those two statements.

Many of their earlier videos (before they started to do "What If" videos a la XKCD) focused on the confusing, absurd, and seemingly meaningless existence of humanity -- so much so, that they made a video on "Optimistic Nihilism". They're quite reserved in the statements that they make, as well. They won't say life is meaningless, only that we haven't found something we truly agree upon as meaningful, and given that t…

I think "existential panic" in this case maybe isn't referring to existentialism, but... existence? Like if you aren't going to have food tomorrow, and there's no solid prospect of figuring out how to get food the next day, that's a panic fueled by the desire to continue to exist. It's kind of an imprecise term in this case, but that's what I took it to mean.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#89

Post by thriftwy »

sharemywin wrote: post #86
thriftwy wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would their costs go up?

labor costs go up because labor supply goes down.

This depends. In many locales, labor supply might go up as people come for cheap homes to live on UBI, and then look for auxiliary work.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#90

Post by dllthomas »

dragonwriter wrote: post #82
notzorbo3 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems everybody has different goals for UBI. Getting unemployed people to work is not one I've encountered before I think. I fail to see how giving everybody free money is going to get unemployed people to work. For them, nothing changes. > The taxes will come from the same places they are expected to: automation increasingly taking over the creation of most of the wealth in society. I think this is the "lets tax…

> It seems everybody has different goals for UBI. Getting unemployed people to work is not one I've encountered before I think. It's one of the most common I've seen cited by both left- and right-leaning UBI proponents. > I fail to see how giving everybody free money is going to get unemployed people to work. For them, nothing changes. For the unemployed, two critical things change compared to existing policy in a ty…

Possibly also more demand for their labor, as more people are able to more freely express their needs.
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