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Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

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Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#21

First line: "What if the state covered the cost of living?" Who is paying for the income? It's not "The state". It's everyone else, by taxation. You're telling people you have a right to seize their earnings for their labor. You're literally taking someone else's money, and giving it to someone else. UBI is nothing but people ignoring the moral problems of seizing assets and saying "The end justifies the means." If a…

I'm not sure why this is being down voted as this is a matter of opinion - an opinion that many agree with.

In fact, in the US there is nothing in the constitution that supports the taxation of the people for these programs.

I'm all for UBI actually but this opinion is still valid.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#22
When it comes to UBI, there's an interesting psychological phenomenon.

I believe that McDonald's and similar establishments could have automated away the vast majority of their work force years, maybe even decades ago. And yet there are still people working there. In fact, McDonald's is often viewed as many people's first entrance into the work force, and as a safety blanket if anything goes south (well worst case at least I can go work at McDonald's or something).

In other words, I believe McDonald's and its kin are a form of social welfare.

We see this elsewhere, in less subtle ways. Tons of jobs that shouldn't exist, but which are kept afloat by regulation designed specifically to preserve those jobs.

We pay either higher taxes or higher pries to achieve both of these forms of social welfare.

And yet, support for these jobs and social actions is generally quite strong. Hence why restaurants haven't fully automated themselves; the market would vomit at the idea of those thousands of jobs being replaced by machines. Regardless of whether that would save people an incredible amount of money, they are willing to accept those sacrifices in exchange for those jobs being available.

In that light, what's the difference between what we have today versus UBI? Either you're paying someone to do functionally meaningless work, or you're paying them to do "nothing". Under the former, their work is _truly_ meaningless. Under the latter they at least have the chance to do something beneficial for either themselves or others.

Personally I haven't formed a real opinion of UBI. Even in light of the above arguments, the complexities make it a problem not so easily reasoned through. But I suppose my point is that UBI isn't as drastic a step as many imagine it to be. It would be more of an evolution of our existing, de-facto social welfare programs.

EDIT: Addendum: When I use the term meaningless here I'm really just using it for the sake of argument. Obviously no one's work is meaningless. Just because a machine could do the exact same job that a human can do, doesn't mean that the task, as performed by a human, is meaningless. The true thrust of my argument is that a human performing the task subtracts value from the economy relative to a machine doing the job. It's sub-optimal.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#23
A UBI of $12,000/year given to every adult by the goverment would double the annual government expenditure.

That is fine, but we should have a talk about how the program is funded. This is one of the reasons I prefer talking about negative income tax. Yes, the concept is more complex, and has a worse acronym, but it is largely self-funded.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#24

I still don't see how UBI doesn't cause inflation enough to offset any benefit(in the near term ie before robot job apocalypses).

Maybe using a resource based UBI rather than a money based UBI could help avoid this problem?

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#25
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If UBI = $1 / person, then the difference in pressure is small. The pressure might be small, but it's still there. The €1 still has to come from somewhere. > Also, you presume that people only work for money. I think with UBI, you'd see a revitalization of community oriented, but low profit pursuits. How are low-profit pursuits going to pay for everybody's UBI? You can't heavily tax low-profit pursuits.

The premise of UBI is that not everybody needs to work. It's not that everybody will move towards low-profit pursuits it's that otherwise unemployed people will. The taxes will come from the same places they are expected to: automation increasingly taking over the creation of most of the wealth in society. We'll see if it works in practice, but that's the theory.

It seems everybody has different goals for UBI. Getting unemployed people to work is not one I've encountered before I think. I fail to see how giving everybody free money is going to get unemployed people to work. For them, nothing changes.

> The taxes will come from the same places they are expected to: automation increasingly taking over the creation of most of the wealth in society.

I think this is the "lets tax automation!" argument? That's another one I haven't seen convincing arguments for. Why do you think companies would stand for such a thing and not oursource their automation to a country that doesn't do UBI?

> that's the theory.

I think there's a lot lacking in the theory, and I'm not hearing any convincing solutions for the problems UBI presents from anyone. It all seems to be built on hopes and dreams and best wishes, with little accounting for actual real-world considerations.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#26
post #9

I still don't see how UBI doesn't cause inflation enough to offset any benefit(in the near term ie before robot job apocalypses).

Because many (most?) markets are buyer's markets. You try to increase prices, you are out of business which is eaten by competitors.

if everyone's costs go up everyone will be forced to raise prices.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#27

First line: "What if the state covered the cost of living?" Who is paying for the income? It's not "The state". It's everyone else, by taxation. You're telling people you have a right to seize their earnings for their labor. You're literally taking someone else's money, and giving it to someone else. UBI is nothing but people ignoring the moral problems of seizing assets and saying "The end justifies the means." If a…

>But taking assets from people and giving them to another person is wrong, no matter how good the outcome is.

This describes "profit" equally well as "taxes."

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#28
post #23

A UBI of $12,000/year given to every adult by the goverment would double the annual government expenditure. That is fine, but we should have a talk about how the program is funded. This is one of the reasons I prefer talking about negative income tax. Yes, the concept is more complex, and has a worse acronym, but it is largely self-funded.

Take it out of the 576 Billion dollar defense budget that makes up more than half of all federal spending?

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#29

First line: "What if the state covered the cost of living?" Who is paying for the income? It's not "The state". It's everyone else, by taxation. You're telling people you have a right to seize their earnings for their labor. You're literally taking someone else's money, and giving it to someone else. UBI is nothing but people ignoring the moral problems of seizing assets and saying "The end justifies the means." If a…

You aren't complaining about UBI, you are complaining about taxes (yes, I get how they are related, but they aren't the same thing).

We've long ago decided that we as a society are OK with taxes. If you don't want to pay them, go somewhere that doesn't make you pay them.

Re: Universal Basic Income Explained – Free Money for Everybody? [video]

#30
post #23

A UBI of $12,000/year given to every adult by the goverment would double the annual government expenditure. That is fine, but we should have a talk about how the program is funded. This is one of the reasons I prefer talking about negative income tax. Yes, the concept is more complex, and has a worse acronym, but it is largely self-funded.

Take it out of the 576 Billion dollar defense budget that makes up more than half of all federal spending?

That's not 3 trillion dollars.
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