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$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

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Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#161

Post by qaq »

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

" Most people in Congress have enough money and get a nice insurance plan" -- hehe they get government insurance that pretty much covers 100% of everything you can't really buy an equivalent commercial policy but they sure will argue all day that you def. don't want that horrible gov. insurance.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#162

Post by InitialLastName »

humanrebar wrote: post #150
maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

> My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them... Yes, the toll is high, but only during peak usage hours. And there are other routes to take (that low income people presumably have been already using). In general, progressively pricing services is a mistake. Instead, we should be progressively supplementing incomes (minimum income, negative income tax, commuter ca…

> change what they'll pay in rent, > the prices of homes, > the lobbying of their representatives for more public transportation,

Those things all have a not insignificant cost that makes them potentially unavailable to the folks at the less wealthy end of our society.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#163

Post by leetcrew »

InitialLastName wrote: post #162
humanrebar wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them... Yes, the toll is high, but only during peak usage hours. And there are other routes to take (that low income people presumably have been already using). In general, progressively pricing services is a mistake. Instead, we should be progressively supplementing incomes (minimum income, negative income tax, commuter ca…

> change what they'll pay in rent, > the prices of homes, > the lobbying of their representatives for more public transportation, Those things all have a not insignificant cost that makes them potentially unavailable to the folks at the less wealthy end of our society.

> In general, progressively pricing services is a mistake. Instead, we should be progressively supplementing incomes (minimum income, negative income tax, commuter cards, etc.) until people can afford market-priced bills, goods, and fees.

OP acknowledges this and proposes an (albeit vague) solution.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#164

Post by grasshopperpurp »

Tinyyy wrote: post #153
Joe-Z wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing is that the rules for using publicly financed goods/services are the same for everybody. If you pay for your electricity of course you are free to choose what you do with it. This is not the same as with roads though, since they are a finite resource (whereas, arguably, electricity can be seen as infinite in this case). You can't ask people to pay for roads which they then can't use because they c…

But the rules remain the same for everyone: if you want to use the road and don’t want to carpool, you pay.

If you make $550 per day, $40 is 7% of your daily income; if you make $82 per day, it's 49%. That's not the same for everyone. Of course, there are people who make well more than $550 per day and people who make significantly less than $82 per day.

($200,000/365=$550; $30,000/365=$82)

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#165

Post by kbutler »

ForHackernews wrote: post #81
kbutler wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a really market-oriented guy, but I have concerns about wealth's distorting effect on markets. That is, the "cost" of an item is much less to a wealthy person than to a non-wealthy person. Billionaire Bob can spend $100,000 on a whim, but Pauper Paul can't scrounge $10,000 for life-critical health-care. Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot ri…

Some interesting ideas on this front: 1) Using markets to allocate resources without real money: http://review.chicagobooth.edu/economics/2016/article/why-fa... 2) Finland charges road fines on a "day-rate" that varies depending on the offender's income: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland...

Great examples - thanks!

Both the "fake money" and the "cost scales with income" are great ways to extend the applicability of markets to areas without currency or to minimize wealth effects.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#166

Post by humanrebar »

InitialLastName wrote: post #162
humanrebar wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them... Yes, the toll is high, but only during peak usage hours. And there are other routes to take (that low income people presumably have been already using). In general, progressively pricing services is a mistake. Instead, we should be progressively supplementing incomes (minimum income, negative income tax, commuter ca…

> change what they'll pay in rent, > the prices of homes, > the lobbying of their representatives for more public transportation, Those things all have a not insignificant cost that makes them potentially unavailable to the folks at the less wealthy end of our society.

Lobbying of local city council isn't expensive. It mostly involves time: contacting them, writing letters to local media, forming online groups to organize the neighborhood, etc.

The price of homes and rent are actually really important. If low-density housing is much more expensive, it should be reflected in the cost of living for those places. If having the entire city on the same 9-5 commuting schedule is expensive, it should be reflected in the cost of driving during rush hour.

Now, granted, raising the price of commuting 10000% overnight isn't fair. But introducing and phasing in tolls during peak hours is a step in the right direction in my opinion. Housing prices will slowly adjust. Employees will gradually convince employers to allow more flexible work arrangements or give raises to compensate. The indirect effects of these changes are highly desirable. But realizing them is stalled while the inefficient and unsustainable practices are subsidized like this.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#167

Post by humanrebar »

leetcrew wrote: post #163
InitialLastName wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> change what they'll pay in rent, > the prices of homes, > the lobbying of their representatives for more public transportation, Those things all have a not insignificant cost that makes them potentially unavailable to the folks at the less wealthy end of our society.

> In general, progressively pricing services is a mistake. Instead, we should be progressively supplementing incomes (minimum income, negative income tax, commuter cards, etc.) until people can afford market-priced bills, goods, and fees. OP acknowledges this and proposes an (albeit vague) solution.

Handing out free toll tags with SNAP isn't vague at all. That's what commuter cards referred to.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#168

Post by sageabilly »

I live in Northern Virginia, and the statement "People who were totally banned from a road now could now use it at its busiest time" is false. People were already driving on I-66 solo during HOV-only hours, they were just counting on super lax enforcement and the law of probability falling in their favor for not getting caught. When riding in the metro in the mornings (which runs parallel to I-66 into DC for a time) you saw lots and lots and LOTS of solo commuters during HOV times.

I imagine now people are just switching their EZPass (toll transponder) to "HOV" and still driving solo, which I imagine is even harder to enforce.

Traffic into and out of DC to and from Northern Virginia SUCKS, it's always sucked, and it will continue to suck probably indefinitely. There need to be more roads and more bridges across the Potomac river but there's no logistically possible way to do so.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#169

Post by nsnick »

kbutler wrote: post #70
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

I'm a really market-oriented guy, but I have concerns about wealth's distorting effect on markets. That is, the "cost" of an item is much less to a wealthy person than to a non-wealthy person. Billionaire Bob can spend $100,000 on a whim, but Pauper Paul can't scrounge $10,000 for life-critical health-care. Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot ri…

You are talking about ration cards. This has been tried. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ration_stamp

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#170

Post by harryh »

raverbashing wrote: post #89
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

Donated organs are a scarce resource Radio spectrum is a scarce resource You can't solve those with market mechanisms Electrical transmission and generation facilities are somewhat scarce and we all see how the "free marked" worked great in the Enron case there

The lack of market mechanisms for organ donations has lead to an huge undersupply of them in the United States. It's literally causing a massive number of people to die that wouldn't under a more market oriented system.
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