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The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

theguardian.com

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Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#321

Post by musage »

jeffdavis wrote: post #104
ringaroundthetx wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The farmers would talk about struggling, but have a brand new semi-tractor sitting in a barn unused 10 months out of the year. Don't you think that PERCEPTION is a horrible mindset? Less sympathy to people's stresses because they haven't lost their dignity. This applies to street beggars, immigrants, etc. The stuff I've heard are appalling. Formally middle class immigrants getting less empathy because they have cel…

Is it possible to criticize decisions and have empathy at the same time? Or is criticism not acceptable at all?

Currently, the first comment including replies makes up for 182 comments out of 312, and as far as page estate goes, it completely dominates. It's about technicalities, attachment to land, all sorts of things except depression and suicide.

Though what it pushes down isn't all better, with niceties such as "the market is doing a good job at signaling that they probably need to change professions"

Fucking HN. Seriously. I want textfiles back.

> Is it possible to criticize decisions and have empathy at the same time?

Yes, it's possible, but it's not done here.

> Or is criticism not acceptable at all?

Are you projecting? Whenever the glaring soullessnes in a HN thread is criticized, it's downvotes and hair splitting.

Yes, it's technically possible to have empathy and also criticize, but due to the sequential nature of communication even when you do both, you have to decide what to do first. When the whole page is taken up by chatter, the empathy exists somewhere below the "More" fold, if at all.

Yes, criticism is acceptable. As long as criticism of the criticism, such as calling it heartless victim blaming as I would, is also acceptable. Otherwise, the right to criticize is forfeit.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#322

Post by s3nnyy »

dejv wrote: post #198
s3nnyy wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say farmers are quite happy in Switzerland being the most subsidised farmers in Europe / the world? On top, some of them own land, which makes them into multimillionaires the moment the land is turned from farm-land into land that can be used to put houses on.

Subsidising farmers is double edge sword, it do inflate the prices of everything you are supposed to buy with that money, be it tractors, land, fertilisers and such. Dealers know how much you are going to get from government and they want some of it.

Sure but the Swiss are the most risk-averse people on the planet. In case again a world-war breaks out they need to be able to feed the country without relying on imports. That an important main reasons for subsidies. If somehow it could be guaranteed that there will be no war in Europe ever, my best guess is that the Swiss would immediately drop this "inefficiency" (they love to be efficient).

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#323

Post by danieltillett »

kfcm wrote: post #272
nradov wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of farmland being "for sale" at all seems bizarre. This isn't someone's home. Raw land is effectively always for sale, just contact the owner and make an unsolicited offer. Is this just a psychological issue of people being attached to certain parcels or is there some other factor?

I'm guessing you didn't grow up on a farm. There will always be some farmland effectively for sale; but there will also be other farmland which will never be for sale, no matter what the cost. The latter are generally "homeplaces", which have been in the family for generations. Heritage, blood, sweat, and years of hard work bind you to the soil, the land. It's more than an emotional attachment--it's almost spiritual,…

It is amazing to see the effect of this in the wild - the land owns the people and it is basically impossible to sell. I have seen people who own land worth 10s of million of dollars live like paupers because they are so tied to the land.

I have wondered how much this effect is genetically built into us - there really is something different about how people view farmland compared to every other asset.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#324

Post by coldtea »

stickfigure wrote: post #230
coldtea wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's above 95%. And the claim is not that they don't "pay income taxes" period, but that they don't pay their full income taxes based on actual income, using all kinds of legal, semilegal, and even illegal, schemes.

Sure, income is revenue minus expenditures so the easiest way to avoid income (and income taxes) is to just spend everything you make. Which is what the parent of this thread was saying. The consequence is that in bad times, the company has to borrow (if it can) or goes bankrupt. Which happens often. We don't generally shed tears over this kind of thing, but this story points out the human tragedy that passes when in…

>Personally I kinda feel a little meh about the subject. My heart goes out to every struggling business(wo)man - it's hard to make it on your own. But farmers are especially insulated against market forces by a giant morass of subsidies and land use regulations. They're already getting a much bigger handout than they deserve.

Smaller businesses yes.

Big businesses get even more subsidies than farmers -- and not just subsidies.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#325

Post by imtringued »

CydeWeys wrote: post #118
mikestew wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

money that I will never see again See also: depreciation on a $150K tractor I didn’t need.

Depreciation on a $150K tractor you don't need amounts to -$150K, for what it's worth ;) It's just some amount of that every year (with the biggest hit being in the same year, same for buying a new car).

You can still sell it.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#326

Post by ubernostrum »

icebraining wrote: post #317
CydeWeys wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system is what allowed the existence of the medium you're using to argue against it. It is hypocritical to argue against the downsides of civilization while taking advantages of all of its benefits.

So if a thief steals your car and leaves you his bicycle, it's hypocritical to criticize him while using the bike to get around? Or if you're forced to pay protection money by some gang, it's hypocritical to criticize them even if they do protect your business from other gangs? And is it hypocritical to live in the West and take advantage of all the benefits it gained from centuries of imperialism and exploitation, w…

Your attempt to make an analogy here doesn't hold up. The anti-tax position would be to want to keep your car but also get use of the bicycle whenever you want it, since the true taxation analogy would be both you and the other person granting use of your property to others.

Unless you want to argue about people paying more in taxes than they (feel they) get in benefits. In which case, well, the most rabid anti-tax people generally are getting far more benefits than they pay for (and are busily re-rigging the tax system to tilt even more in their favor).

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#327

Post by yters »

danieltillett wrote: post #323
kfcm wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing you didn't grow up on a farm. There will always be some farmland effectively for sale; but there will also be other farmland which will never be for sale, no matter what the cost. The latter are generally "homeplaces", which have been in the family for generations. Heritage, blood, sweat, and years of hard work bind you to the soil, the land. It's more than an emotional attachment--it's almost spiritual,…

It is amazing to see the effect of this in the wild - the land owns the people and it is basically impossible to sell. I have seen people who own land worth 10s of million of dollars live like paupers because they are so tied to the land. I have wondered how much this effect is genetically built into us - there really is something different about how people view farmland compared to every other asset.

Farmland is essentially a complete livelihood, whereas other land is just a place to park a house.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#328

Post by outsideoflife »

ethbro wrote: post #296
Spooky23 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. Land has low carrying cost and people will sit on it for years to speculate or hold neighbors hostage.

Part of this is that a lot of states have agricultural exemptions or lower rates for farmland. Even if it's not effectively farmed. Or McMansions in the countryside exploiting the same law via what my dad called "Noah's Ark farms" (just two of every animal). So yes, if you want to game the system and sit on land, there's little tax incentive to sell it.

In the UK this is doubly true, because you also receive your subsidy from the EU for owning that land. In fact in many ways farming it less efficiently gets you more as you can qualify for environmental uplifts for using less fertilizer and keeping bigger headlands and hedges.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#329

Post by EdSharkey »

dang wrote: post #313
baldfat wrote: post #65

> but the most extreme anti-government/anti-tax ideologies. It's the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. That sadly isn't an extreme ideologies. Every wonder why Republicans are all for tax cuts? Its the simple idea that if the Government has less money it must be smaller. So lower the taxes of the rich and corporations = smaller government. This is why we have problems all the time with tax…

This triggered the sort of low-rent political thread we don't want here. Please don't do that. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15862439 and marked it well off-topic.

I thought everyone was very respectful.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#330

Post by icebraining »

ubernostrum wrote: post #326
icebraining wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if a thief steals your car and leaves you his bicycle, it's hypocritical to criticize him while using the bike to get around? Or if you're forced to pay protection money by some gang, it's hypocritical to criticize them even if they do protect your business from other gangs? And is it hypocritical to live in the West and take advantage of all the benefits it gained from centuries of imperialism and exploitation, w…

Your attempt to make an analogy here doesn't hold up. The anti-tax position would be to want to keep your car but also get use of the bicycle whenever you want it, since the true taxation analogy would be both you and the other person granting use of your property to others. Unless you want to argue about people paying more in taxes than they (feel they) get in benefits. In which case, well, the most rabid anti-tax p…

I'm not arguing for "the most rabid anti-tax people" and whatever their position may be. I'm arguing against a specific claim made by CydeWeys - that it's "hypocritical to argue against the downsides of civilization while taking advantages of all of its benefits" - and my analogies are specifically written to fit that claim.

If the claim was that anti-tax people demand both not paying tax and that others do, then I wouldn't have posted. Although I'd say that just selfish, not hypocritical.

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