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Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

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Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#61

Post by threeseed »

codingdave wrote: post #49
threeseed wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for an enterprise company and we demand the source code for machine learning models from vendors all the time. This isn't like asking for the code to Excel. It's a model derived from our data that has likely no use for anyone but us and is highly susceptible to misunderstandings of the data. We absolutely need to verify your work. Models are the output of the process. It's like going to graphic designer for wo…

> You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. I have no idea what I'm talking about in this specific niche either... but does it normally go over well when you start a conversation that way?

I have removed the comment.

It's just frustrating that this poor startup is going to make a monumentally bad decision based on people in here who have no zero clue what they are talking about.

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#62

Post by tootie »

lasereyes136 wrote: post #14

Well, having worked for a small software startup that did just that, I can tell you what we did. We agreed to letting them audit the code with conditions. 1. The audit happened on our computers with someone from our team in control (me). I locked the computer when I wasn't physically there to watch what they did. 2. We removed the most sensitive part of the code and told them what it did. We kept the method signature…

You mean to say that you reserved the right to not answer certain questions or that you refused any questions?

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#63

Post by ufmace »

tonystubblebine wrote: post #16

I want to plus one everyone saying no. All of their reasons make sense to me. In addition, I'd love to help your confidence with getting used to the idea that saying no is ok. I remember being in this situation many times and feeling like if we said no we'd lose the client and maybe go out of business. But truly, clients often ask for things that aren't very important to them and they will not mind being told that th…

This. The request may be a big deal to you, but it isn't necessarily a big deal to the client. Don't go big on the ultimatums and alternative plans until they indicate that it is a deal-breaker for them.

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#64

Post by threeseed »

babuskov wrote: post #11

> How would you respond? In these situations it's best to ask yourself a simple question: what would Coca-cola do if they asked to see the formula.

Bad analogy. Better one is:

If you hired a photographer would you expect the RAW files ?

I would.

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#65

Post by lasereyes136 »

tootie wrote: post #62
lasereyes136 wrote: post #14

Well, having worked for a small software startup that did just that, I can tell you what we did. We agreed to letting them audit the code with conditions. 1. The audit happened on our computers with someone from our team in control (me). I locked the computer when I wasn't physically there to watch what they did. 2. We removed the most sensitive part of the code and told them what it did. We kept the method signature…

You mean to say that you reserved the right to not answer certain questions or that you refused any questions?

We reserved the right to not answer certain questions. I answered most of their questions, only 1 or 2 were in areas where I wasn't suppose to give them answers.

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#66

Post by sbinthree »

Unless downtime of your application results in money lost for them (as opposed to bad decision making) then I would probably say no to this. If it comes down to "Is the data science good enough?" that is basically a sales objection. If you can, talk about success with other companies and your track records. There are legitimate reasons for a customer to need to see your source code, verifying that you can do your job is not one of them. Treat like a sales objection.

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#67

Post by theobon »

wgj wrote: post #27
notyourday wrote: post #7

If they are trying not to end up in the situation where you go out of business and they are screwed, offer them to escrow the code for a certain amount of money. If you go out of business, they get the code. If you do not, they don't

If the out of business scenario includes the possibility of acquisition or asset sale, code escrow is a significant factor lessening the value of assets or killing the deal entirely. Stated differently, it's not what a buyer wants to find in due diligence. The $50+bn company might even be the potential buyer, but under code escrow they just get it for free (less whatever was negotiated up front.)

Typically these are worded as part of support & maintenance and is triggered by failure to meet that obligation. Acquisition, merger, spin-out, JV or bankruptcy would not trigger it provided support is maintained. Also, the force majeure clause typically allows some reasonable timeline to reinstate support before it is triggered.

I would think the positive of a large client greatly outweighs the liability of the code escrow.

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#68

Post by amarraja »

hoodoof wrote: post #52

This is just politics. Find a way to say "yes", which satisfies their need to hear you say "yes", but your "yes" conditions mean they need to spend money (which they won't want to do), and further conditions, even if they do, as other commenters have suggested, make the process dysfunctional. Watch our politicians in government handle any issue. They are masters of saying "yes" and delivering "no", which makes people…

Slightly off topic, but....

> Find a way to say "yes", which satisfies their need to hear you say "yes"

This is the best skill to train if you're going to be working with enterprise clients.

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#69

Post by [deleted] »

threeseed wrote: post #37
njyx wrote: post #3

This is a complete no-no. There really is no justification for this whatsoever. What does "cover their bases" mean? As them to explain what they are trying to achieve and find other ways to assuage their concerns. The only legitimate thing is to have something in case you fail and they have "banked" on you. There is a legit way to solve that. basically if they want that tell them they should pay for an Escrow service…

I work for an enterprise company and we demand the source code for machine learning models from vendors all the time. This isn't like asking for the code to Excel. It's a model derived from our data that has likely no use for anyone but us and is highly susceptible to misunderstandings of the data. We absolutely need to verify your work. Models are the output of the process. It's like going to graphic designer for wo…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Huge enterprise customer wants to see our source code

#70

Post by RHSman2 »

threeseed wrote: post #33

Most of the people in this thread clearly don't understand the situation as Analytics/ML is quite different to normal IT. 1) The company is not going to acquire you nor will they sue you. 2) They absolutely want to replicate what you've done. It's not so that they can build their own startup and compete with you. It's because they genuinely want to understand how you got the results. Companies are increasingly basing…

Best answer here. I am in the exact same situation BUT I actually share the code from the get go because of the need to understand decisions (and GDPR is going to make that even more important). If the OP company is doing something that is not possible elsewhere then fine but if they are just allowing them to goto market faster then the effort to re-engineer and get working (particularly in the AI/ML space) is pretty time consuming. EDIT: I think that the time of proprietary algorithms as MOATS are an old way. Things are moving SO fast now that your business is going to be outdated with the next release of Tensorflow or whatever is over the horizon.
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