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The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

theguardian.com

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Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#231

Post by CydeWeys »

yock wrote: post #212
CydeWeys wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern society works by having everyone contribute for the greater good. One of the principal mechanisms by which this occurs is taxation and spending on government services. You go really far down the civilizational chain if you remove these mechanisms. Almost all the way down to primitivism.

> Modern society works by having everyone contribute for the greater good. Whose definition of "good" are we using? Clearly not mine, as my definition of "good" demands consent.

Stop using the Internet for starters, then. Billions of dollars of tax money went into developing it.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#232

Post by coliveira »

ams6110 wrote: post #180
kbenson wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the claim might be something similar , but not quite that extreme. I don't think it strains credulity to think that the majority of large corporations take advantage of loopholes to drastically reduce their taxes.

> large corporations take advantage of loopholes Of course they do. They are using legal means to reduce their taxes. Why wouldn't they. Would you decline your mortgage interest deduction, your solar energy or EV deduction, etc. so you could claim you are paying your "fair" share? Go ahead -- nothing is stopping you.

It is not that they are taking advantage of existing loopholes. They actively lobby to create new loopholes that will enable more "legal" tax evasion.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#233

Post by gozur88 »

LockeWatts wrote: post #189
ams6110 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> large corporations take advantage of loopholes Of course they do. They are using legal means to reduce their taxes. Why wouldn't they. Would you decline your mortgage interest deduction, your solar energy or EV deduction, etc. so you could claim you are paying your "fair" share? Go ahead -- nothing is stopping you.

Being intentionally obtuse about the use of the word "fair" in that context doesn't help you prove your point to anyone who disagrees with you.

"Fair" is so subjective in the context of taxation it's virtually meaningless. You can't assume other people share the same assumptions rolled up into the word.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#234

Post by bluGill »

Jtsummers wrote: post #136
bluGill wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having your own semi is very important during harvest: your combine will fill up in 15 minutes. That means every 15 minutes you need to unload it. 2 combines worth of grain is as much as your can haul in a semi (because of road weight restrictions). When the farmer is harvesting they don't want to stop: every delay is a chance that a storm latter will destroy the rest of the crop. Farmers often hard hauling to a elev…

At least for my family's farm in OK, a lot of the labor moves and takes the equipment with them. They move north to south with the season and the farm owners don't have to own as much equipment (in our case, none of us are farmers and haven't been for a few generations so a different situation). The farm manager still farms his own land, but he uses this same labor and their equipment with own a little of his own for…

That is also a common way to do it. I know of farmers who own all their own equipment. I know of farmers who hire everything done. Both are very valid and correct ways to do things. There are different tradeoffs involved in both.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#235

Post by moduspol »

avs733 wrote: post #90
ravingraven wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that such a strategy is not optimal but it is not quite how you describe it to be. In the mind of the farmer: * $150,000 tractor: something that has value (not easy to calculate, but a $150k tractor has a value above zero, even if not brand new) and utility. * $30,000 to the IRS: money that I will never see again. Literally thrown away money. Option number 1 is very tempting.

The problem with that is that its only a $150,000 tractor until you drive it off the lot. I would be if the day after you bought it you are lucky if it is a $120,000 tractor. Averseness to government is taxation is so engrained in some country it is almost genetic...and it leads to utterly bad thinking by individuals.

Of course, but then you've now got $30,000 in depreciation toward next year's taxes!

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#236

Post by gozur88 »

halestock wrote: post #12
gonzoflip wrote: post #9

I have family that farms in Iowa and I also worked in the agriculture industry there for a while after leaving the military. One thing that increases the stress on the farmers is the way they avoid income taxes at all costs so they rarely save any of the profits from good years to help them float during the bad years. This is all anecdotal but I have personally talked with several farmers that would rather buy new eq…

Is this for philosophical reasons about taxes and government? Or is it just a big chunk of money they're trying to save?

Not many people will deliberately throw away money just to avoid taxes that would have been cheaper.

Farmers aren't stupid. They're doing what makes them the most money in the long run.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#237

Post by cat199 »

pm90 wrote: post #191
avs733 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is that its only a $150,000 tractor until you drive it off the lot. I would be if the day after you bought it you are lucky if it is a $120,000 tractor. Averseness to government is taxation is so engrained in some country it is almost genetic...and it leads to utterly bad thinking by individuals.

Maybe we are not doing a good enough job of promoting civic duty, including payment of taxes? After all those taxes are used mostly for Medicare, Medicaid and the Military, all of which seem like worthy causes to pay for right? Not including State and Local taxes used for more immediate local functions, of course.

> Maybe we are not doing a good enough job of promoting civic duty, including payment of taxes?

If you're a strict old-school limited govt jeffersonian type, as many farmers are, fighting income taxes and avoiding paying into federally mandated systems is your civic duty..

not saying I agree with either side - but pointing out that notions of 'civic duty' are not so cut-and-dried

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#238

Post by cat199 »

tdeck wrote: post #81
DannyB2 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how they see taxes as thrown away? Yes, government is inefficient. And corrupt. But you do need roads. And bridges. And law enforcement. And even military protection, even if it seems far away and remote from your farm.

Not to mention $20 billion a year in farm subsidies.

only if you accept them.

many farmers dont.

also: these are not distributed evenly (see also agribusiness)

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#239

Post by dsfyu404ed »

nitrogen wrote: post #98
scarmig wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that is a common feeling. And it probably varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. But in the USA, just as coastal areas subsidize inland areas, typically urban areas within a state subsidize the rural areas. Definitely true of California counties, and I'd be very surprised if this wasn't true of any particular state.

This gets brought up a lot on Hacker News as if it's a bad thing. One, I doubt it's as universally true as people think (I'd wager that in Utah, say, an equal chunk of taxes comes from suburban as urban areas), and two, people who can't afford the cities need places to live and those who can need places to vacation and buy food.

The city slickers don't want to cut checks to a bunch of hicks and the rednecks don't want to give their money to the city slickers and neither wants the other telling them what to do but our tax system ensures that they can't stay out of each other's business.

Re: The suicide rate for farmers in the U.S. is more than double that of veterans

#240

Post by moduspol »

DannyB2 wrote: post #60
ravingraven wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that such a strategy is not optimal but it is not quite how you describe it to be. In the mind of the farmer: * $150,000 tractor: something that has value (not easy to calculate, but a $150k tractor has a value above zero, even if not brand new) and utility. * $30,000 to the IRS: money that I will never see again. Literally thrown away money. Option number 1 is very tempting.

I wonder how they see taxes as thrown away? Yes, government is inefficient. And corrupt. But you do need roads. And bridges. And law enforcement. And even military protection, even if it seems far away and remote from your farm.

Did you see the thread here literally yesterday about taxes becoming higher for upper-middle class earners in blue states? Why didn't they get asked why they don't want roads?

I feel like this comes up any time someone does something to avoid paying taxes, as if that necessarily means they want no government at all. They (the farmers) will see no appreciable difference whether they pay the tax or buy the tractor, so they choose the tractor. That doesn't mean they don't want roads.

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