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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#21

Post by log_base_login »

burntrelish1273 wrote: post #7

Two reasons: 0. Military Indu$trial Complex 1. Moral-panicking Christian sociopaths hate poor people

Not sure why you have to point at the members of the Christian religion as the culprit, when there are people of similarly zealous ilk in each and every religion besides Christianity. Certainly, Christianity has the majority stake of religion in the Western world, but this question is a global one, and I don't remember the last time a person was summarily executed for dealing drugs in a Christian country like one might find in Singapore, or their head cut off like one might find in certain Middle Eastern countries, or (again) killed, in certain African countries.

Pointing a finger at a single group is unproductive when the desired outcome is a more comprehensively understanding, less punitive, and essentially more humanitarian solution for what is at issue.

The real disconnect is that the people in power are not held to the same standard as those being sentenced. When was the last time you heard of a prosecuting attorney being drug tested before they could argue in court? What about a judge, or probation/parole/police officer? If there was some transparency in how ubiquitous drug use actually is, one might have some real leverage when seeking to implement more equitable (and therefore less punitive) legislation that provides fairer sentencing guidelines.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#22

Post by rebuilder »

meri_dian wrote: post #18
sfRattan wrote: post #10

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair That's about it really. There are a whole lot of people across the world whose salaries depend on an unending drug war.

That thought doesn't really capture the reason. It applies in some circumstances but not this one. In a republic, people are only paid to enforce restrictive drug policy because the people want them to. Most people look at the issue in simple terms. "Drugs are bad, so keep them away from people". Legalization is a counterintuitive way to lower incidence of use and addiction, it will take a lot to convince people it i…

I think a lot of people see it more as "Drug users are bad, so they should be punished".

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#23

Post by thrden »

One thing that people aren't considering is that we have legalization experiments within the United States, and we have seen an uptick in marijuana usage[1]. This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana. I think that given our culture (one that I believe is potentially universal, but I can not speak to universality) has a tendency toward over consumption, its not clear to me that legalization of drugs would lead to decreased usage. I'm not advocating continuing our failed drug war, just caution when considering legalization, it may still be the best way forward.

[1] http://www.rmhidta.org/html/FINAL%20NSDUH%20Results-%20Jan%2...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#24

Post by tedeh »

burntrelish1273 wrote: post #7

Two reasons: 0. Military Indu$trial Complex 1. Moral-panicking Christian sociopaths hate poor people

With regards to #1 - Portugal is among the more religious countries in Europe [1].

The article unfortunately does not touch on the stance of the religious community of Portugal and how it was (or was not) handled, something which could hold important lessons for similar efforts in the US.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#25

Post by Jedd »

meri_dian wrote: post #18
sfRattan wrote: post #10

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair That's about it really. There are a whole lot of people across the world whose salaries depend on an unending drug war.

That thought doesn't really capture the reason. It applies in some circumstances but not this one. In a republic, people are only paid to enforce restrictive drug policy because the people want them to. Most people look at the issue in simple terms. "Drugs are bad, so keep them away from people". Legalization is a counterintuitive way to lower incidence of use and addiction, it will take a lot to convince people it i…

> That thought doesn't really capture the reason. It applies in some circumstances but not this one.

By 'this circumstance' do you mean the USA, or why drug decriminalisation isn't tried elsewhere?

If the former, consider this fun fact from Wikipedia [1]

"At the beginning of 2008, more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States were in prison or jail. Total US incarceration peaked in 2008. Total correctional population (prison, jail, probation, parole) peaked in 2007. If all prisoners are counted (including juvenile, territorial, ICE, Indian country, and military), then in 2008 the US had around 24.7% of the world's 9.8 million prisoners."

And this one from the same page:

"The number of incarcerated drug offenders has increased twelvefold since 1980. In 2000, 22 percent of those in federal and state prisons were convicted on drug charges."

I believe state numbers are a bit fuzzy, but at a federal level in 2016 it was around 75% of inmates were in private facilities.

So, long story short, there's a lot of wealthy people keen on keeping things as they are -- the fact that it's an easy political sell to the average not-terribly-well-informed voter is a bonus.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#26

Post by sfRattan »

meri_dian wrote: post #18
sfRattan wrote: post #10

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair That's about it really. There are a whole lot of people across the world whose salaries depend on an unending drug war.

That thought doesn't really capture the reason. It applies in some circumstances but not this one. In a republic, people are only paid to enforce restrictive drug policy because the people want them to. Most people look at the issue in simple terms. "Drugs are bad, so keep them away from people". Legalization is a counterintuitive way to lower incidence of use and addiction, it will take a lot to convince people it i…

Nothing special about a Republic. If it has a large police force whose allotments of funds come on the basis of superficial law enforcement activity which can be tracked and used by politicians for campaign talking points, the fundamental incentives at play are still power and wealth.

The politician's salary depends on his understanding of getting elected, and not much else. The politician controls the policeman's salary, which now depends on doing things that will make the politician look good.

Some politician, or group of them, figured out that tough-on-crime looks good as a talking point. Nixon figured out that war-on-drugs looks great as a talking point. But at some point, the financial incentives for a whole built out bureaucracy become self reinforcing, even if the citizens' aggregate beliefs change.

But there's nothing special about a Republic. The mob, a totally different sort of shadow-government, though empowered by prohibition, continued to exist long after, up to today. There was a self reinforcing financial incentive for it to continue.

Related is another quote I like, the Shirkey principle:

“Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution.” —Clay Shirky

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#27

Post by agumonkey »

sfRattan wrote: post #10

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair That's about it really. There are a whole lot of people across the world whose salaries depend on an unending drug war.

Funny, I think a lot about social inertia these days and this summarize the issue nicely. We're all tangled in this weird dance ...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#28

Post by dang »

burntrelish1273 wrote: post #7

Two reasons: 0. Military Indu$trial Complex 1. Moral-panicking Christian sociopaths hate poor people

Please don't post baity rants here. We're trying for thoughtful discussion and the two things are incompatible.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#29

Post by drdrey »

meri_dian wrote: post #18
sfRattan wrote: post #10

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair That's about it really. There are a whole lot of people across the world whose salaries depend on an unending drug war.

That thought doesn't really capture the reason. It applies in some circumstances but not this one. In a republic, people are only paid to enforce restrictive drug policy because the people want them to. Most people look at the issue in simple terms. "Drugs are bad, so keep them away from people". Legalization is a counterintuitive way to lower incidence of use and addiction, it will take a lot to convince people it i…

"because the people want them to" is a bit of an oversimplification to say the least. The people, influenced by media, various factions and their own interest, vote for people who then may or may not do things that "the people want", because they operate within a particular context, zeitgeist, resistance to change, optics, party dynamics, outside money and what they perceive the people to want.
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