Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market • Hacker News Board

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#111

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:34 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #97

JonFish85 wrote: post #79

To me, this is another implementation of the housing bubble: - People see college graduates making a lot of money - Politicians make it a priority to make it easier for people to get loans to go to college - More people take out loans to go to college - Colleges realize there is no downward pressure on price and raise tuition. - Politicians continue to make it easy for people to go to college - People take bigger loa…

The thing I don't understand is, how does it unravel? It feels like politically acceptable short-termism of shunting education costs onto future generations. No-one's going to 'lose' money over it. Who will suffer? It doesn't look like it will be corporations that will suffer, save some institutions will close when the endless supply of money suddenly dries up. It looks to me like it will be governments, a political…

[deleted]

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#112

Post by CalChris » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

The fundamental problem here is that student loans have been declared a special debt not dischargeable through bankruptcy. At the same time, these loans can be Federally guaranteed through FFEL. This leads to $100K cooking schools promising to turn a recent dischargee from the Army into a pro-chef, sign here, here and here.

If student loans were subject to bankruptcy banks would be more careful. Instead we have a political system making bank from banks for ruining young people's lives.

Any libertarians care to wade in here and tell me this is a small price to pay for freedom?

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#113

Post by godelski » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

jdmichal wrote: post #90

godelski wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I really see is that we've dug ourselves a big hole. The safety net created for the banks were done to ensure that everyone could get a loan. Banks were "worried" that people would default on their student loans and run away with the money, even though this hasn't happened or is really rare. There was an unfortunate side effect that this incentivized banks to give out riskier loans. Couple that with telli…

> I'd say "bite the bullet, and that's what banks get for giving out risky loans" but we know that's not going to play out that way, especially since the gov owns a fair portion. > Making tuition free is nice... I think it's funny that you have these two ideas so close together... The government owning most of the loans provides a very easy path to enabling free college retroactively: extinguish all the loans. The go…

Because half of America doesn't want to do a buyback. Though I suspect, if done, it would end the same way as the 2009 bailout. People are upset, and then mostly forget about it. And in this case, would still be upset at banks and institutions instead of the people. But I think getting initial support would be difficult. Personally I'm fine with increased taxes for this. I think everyone should be educated. But again, we need to lower the cost of school and stop them from cheating companies and the gov on research money.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#114

Post by Xylakant » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

smokeyj wrote: post #69

umbrellathorn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for a useless degree they'll never use I went to school for such a degree. While I don't use it in my day to day now, I still consider it priceless. There's some inherent value added to a person who pursues to study a bit of humanities, history, philosophy and art in college apart from their major. Scholarly work really helps shape the way you look at life for the better. Part of this is that you really understand…

Can't tell if you're enlightened or institutionalized. > Scholarly work really helps shape the way you look at life for the better. Like what? What scenario did you encounter and how did your studies help you? Otherwise it sounds like a vague claim that every religious institution would make.

> Like what? What scenario did you encounter and how did your studies help you? Otherwise it sounds like a vague claim that every religious institution would make.

Studying for a degree involves more than just reading a book. A good degree (no matter what major you choose) should leave you with the skills and capabilities to learn and teach yourself new skills. This - not the knowledge gained - is by far the most valuable takeaway that I have from my studies: Oh, I need to learn about the problem space X. How do I start, research, teach myself things about something previously unknown. School teaches knowledge, university learning skills.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#115

Post by stochastic_monk » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

danaliv wrote: post #33

I highly recommend Matthew Crawford's Shop Class as Soulcraft , which includes a discussion of how kids are railroaded into college even though it makes no sense for everyone to go. The destruction of vocational schools is a real problem here. And in a world where any work that doesn't require physical presence is ripe for offshoring, the loss of the vocations is problematic indeed. You can read the essay that starte…

Reminds me of this old SMBC Comic.[1] "The easier college gets, the dumber you look for not having a degree."

Having hoops for discriminating simplifies hiring and other decisions. Simple ones like these are going to stick around as long as people think degrees matter more than how a person produces.

[1] https://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2729#comi...

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#116

Post by workthrowaway27 » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:35 PM UTC

PatientTrades wrote: post #4

There is plenty of blame to go around here. However a major cause of this has been the push by the left that college is the only path to success. Trade and vocational schools as well as military service are all great options for young adults who may not know exactly what they want to do with their life right away. Spending 4 years of your life taking on debt, simply because society tells you college is the path to su…

It's a shame you're getting downvoted, since you make good points. For many people the expected value of college is negative. I also think HN is unnecessarily critical of the military. I work with lots of people who served in the military for a few years after high school before eventually going back to college and they seem happy with the decision.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#117

Post by tzahola » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:36 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #66

JonFish85 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who came from my alma mater who majored in drama can't say the same. Don't worry, your salary gives them a way out too. And I'm not just saying that to be snarky, I think it's very likely what will end up happening: you'll end up paying for their poor choices one way or another. If it's not directly via taxes to pay off their student loans, it'll fund their retirement.

> Don't worry, your salary gives them a way out too. And I'm not just saying that to be snarky, I think it's very likely what will end up happening: you'll end up paying for their poor choices one way or another. If it's not directly via taxes to pay off their student loans, it'll fund their retirement. Social Security benefits, without any other retirement savings, puts you right around poverty level. I would not co…

>The world still needs plenty of professions where the pay sucks and college is required

Quite a self-contradictory statement. I mean, if the world was in such a dire need of said professions in such quantities, then their pay wouldn’t suck in the first place.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#118

Post by cloakandswagger » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:36 PM UTC

ardit33 wrote: post #87

cloakandswagger wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have too many people thinking it's okay to discredit scientists and scholars because they don't understand how research works. And a similar number of people who elevate science to the level of religion, marching in its name and developing a brand of hero worship for scientists when they too know nothing at all about the scientific process. Both are forms of anti-intellectualism that are growing in our polarized…

Say what? I'd say a "propper scientist" will know about the "scientific process" pretty well. Sure, there are plenty of pseudo scientists out there that promote their political or economic agendas, but you can't discredit all science because of that. Right now "hard" science is the best way to explain things around us and the universe. Sure, often it is wrong as new science gets discovered, but that's how human knowl…

That was poor wording. It was in reference to the science "cheerleaders" who, from my own observations, are often equally as clueless about science as there anti-science counterparts.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#119

Post by dweekly » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

crocal wrote: post #106

jackweirdy wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another solution is to let you go to school for free and then pay a percent of all your future earnings back to your college, or at least into a pool that pays for the next generation's college. We could call it income tax :)

Nah, let’s find some flashy Valley name for the concept and disrupt the market.

Personalized Education ICOs. Everyone gets their own token redeemable for a portion of lifetime earnings and tradable on an exchange. Traders can go long on an investment or short you if they forsee the market digesting an event decreasing your likely lifetime earnings.

Re: Student Loan Debt Is Now as Big as the U.S. Junk Bond Market

#120

Post by workthrowaway27 » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

QAPereo wrote: post #12

PatientTrades wrote: post #4

There is plenty of blame to go around here. However a major cause of this has been the push by the left that college is the only path to success. Trade and vocational schools as well as military service are all great options for young adults who may not know exactly what they want to do with their life right away. Spending 4 years of your life taking on debt, simply because society tells you college is the path to su…

It would be hard to justify serving in the US military in terms of morality, personal risk, and long term health consequences.

Maybe ask the people who've served in it? Most people I know who were in the military don't regret it.