The compelling case for working less • Hacker News Board

Re: The compelling case for working less

#161

Post by sertorius » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

sumedh wrote: post #119

wsc981 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... You forget a big part I think: planning for your future. ... What I find remarkable is that in Thailand the people on the country-side generally seem to not think too much about the future. My Thai girlfriend sometimes tells me I should think less about the future, same like the Thai people do. She tells me sometimes I think too much about the future. The Thai people don't care too much about saving up for a pens…

> expect their children to provide for their old age. ..Perhaps this view of life has some roots in the Buddhist religion as well. That has nothing to do with Buddhism, it's because developing countries dont have govt provided social security so old people have to depend on their kids for support.

I believe he was referring to the general living-in-the-present attitude rather than the supported-by-your-child part.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#162

Post by mishkovski » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:24 PM UTC

>Even so, the apparent belief in balancing hard work with il dolce far niente, the sweetness of doing nothing, always struck me. After all, doing nothing appears to be the opposite of being productive. And productivity, whether creative, intellectual or industrial, is the ultimate use of our time.

No it is not. Good use of my time is whatever I decide is good use of my time. And speaking about this in plural(our time) and absolutes(ultimate) is even worse.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#163

Post by gerbilly » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #16

mimo84 wrote: post #3

How many of us are reading this article while "at work"? Just me? I don't think so. I open HackerNews four or five times a day and I read some of the articles. Right now I am in a company where I have to work at least 43 hours a week. Needless to say that I don't feel rested as I used to and my productivity is way lower compared to the past and I get distracted longer and more often than before.

I've never understood required hours. Because sometimes 20 hrs in a week is a lot. Other times 60 is no time at all. Those weeks where 20 are a lot I am extremely distracted and the next day I am not excited for work. The weeks where 60 is no time, most of that is productive and I want to go to work. Judging work by number of hours just seems like a poor metric.

>I've never understood required hours.

They want you there to answer questions.

Workplaces value availability because it's too difficult to design coherent systems and to document them. Instead of that boring old stuff, in the modern workplace, we go fast and break things (or never get them fully working in the first place).

Then we expect workers to be always around so they can be reached on slack when there is a problem.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#164

Post by nnq » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:32 PM UTC

majewsky wrote: post #127

nnq wrote: post #44

An interesting related thought I had recently was: why are we optimizing the technology we develop to help / increase the productivity of, those who work more/harder? ...and not the other way around? It seems like everywhere: even in software, languages and tools that increase the productivity of "lazier" people (aka more "contemplative" or "think a lot, do a little" type of people) are basically always abandoned by…

> nooooobody wants to develop device or apps that minimize user engangement I'm going to take a guess and say that many developers would like to develop those apps. But marketing/sales/C-level says otherwise.

Developers want the $$$ too... so they too follow whatever generates revenue. It's more like the psychology of incentives got screwed: we've taught people to prefer subscriptions instead of one-time-payments, and you're psychologically biased to pay a more expensive subscription for something you spend a lot of time using. You're not going to pay $50/month for a tool you use 3 times a week for 10 minutes no matter how useful it is.

Othoh, if the price was "license + 1 year free upgrades" you'd be quite likely to cough up a $600 license, because you'll think more in terms of outcome value and not time spent. But though luck, the company selling the subscription thingie would be valued more. So you're not going to do that.

Once you do this, you'll not want to waste too much of your user's time, as they'll choose a more efficient competitor... but you're not going to want to take too little of the user's time or attention either! Now he's subconsciously biased into thinking in terms of price/time-unit and you need to play this game.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#165

Post by ryandrake » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:32 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #116

A few years ago, I decided I didn't want to work 40-hour weeks any more, and asked my employer to switch to 32 (four-day weeks), with a 20% pay cut. Satisfaction-wise, it's been fantastic, as four days isn't long enough that you'll get tired by the week, and three free days is amazing to recharge. Unfortunately, I've found that it's rather career-limiting, as people don't care as much if a lowly developer works four-…

I'm not sure how that worked out well for you, unless you also negotiated a 20% reduced workload.

Currently, I have way more work than I can possibly do in 40 hours, meaning I'm already dropping things on the floor if I only work 40. Working even fewer hours would exacerbate this problem.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#166

Post by raphaelj » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:35 PM UTC

StavrosK wrote: post #116

A few years ago, I decided I didn't want to work 40-hour weeks any more, and asked my employer to switch to 32 (four-day weeks), with a 20% pay cut. Satisfaction-wise, it's been fantastic, as four days isn't long enough that you'll get tired by the week, and three free days is amazing to recharge. Unfortunately, I've found that it's rather career-limiting, as people don't care as much if a lowly developer works four-…

I did the same. Asked my employer to work 4-day weeks to lower the pressure after the stressful period during which we released our first product.

Life satisfaction I get from that extra day off if quite huge, as I almost get twice as much free time compared to the time I actually work (3/4 vs 2/5). That time allowed me to get better at playing music and rock climbing and I now have time to read and learn more.

Productivity wise, I probably do a little bit less than I did while I worked full-time. But I'm more productive for every hour I work, which is not really a bad deal for my employer. We have several offices, and most people I've been working with remotely didn't notice that I was working part-time for months.

I also got a 20% pay cut, which reduced my after tax income by about 15% (living in Belgium). Lifestyle hasn't changed, but it definitively has an impact on how much money I can save every month. I'm considering buying an house, and working part-time will definitively delay this by a couple of years.

I agree with you that working part-time could seem career-limiting, but my opinion is that it's more like an inner feeling than something my supervisors think of me (it's a little bit awkward to work part-time when most of your colleges work full-time). In the end, the average gap in productivity between an engineer that works part-time compared to the same one that works full-time is way less than between two given engineers.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#167

Post by StavrosK » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #165

StavrosK wrote: post #116

A few years ago, I decided I didn't want to work 40-hour weeks any more, and asked my employer to switch to 32 (four-day weeks), with a 20% pay cut. Satisfaction-wise, it's been fantastic, as four days isn't long enough that you'll get tired by the week, and three free days is amazing to recharge. Unfortunately, I've found that it's rather career-limiting, as people don't care as much if a lowly developer works four-…

I'm not sure how that worked out well for you, unless you also negotiated a 20% reduced workload. Currently, I have way more work than I can possibly do in 40 hours, meaning I'm already dropping things on the floor if I only work 40. Working even fewer hours would exacerbate this problem.

Sounds like a management problem, it seems to me that your company needs to hire someone to help you.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#168

Post by pault » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

eecc wrote: post #21

ekianjo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

＞ It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. You forget a big part I think: planning for your future. You don't know if you'll have a job 10 years from now. If you have kids you know you need a bunch of cash to make sure they get a re…

> Not everyone is "living in the moment" Nor is everyone obsessed with being winners, of the moral high ground as in this case. Sure working your ass off 80h/w will make you a penny or two more but you may die in the process and will have to sacrifice something to make time. My father passed away with 200+ days of unspent holiday, and I cannot remember a moment with him. I for sure won’t make the same mistake

I'm sorry to hear that, and you make a really good point. A family friend was an engineer at Boeing and worked his whole life there, never taking time off or doing much outside work. He got diagnosed with stage 4 cancer six months after he retired and spent the last few months of his life in hospice care. Everyone knows they won't live forever but the conscious mind doesn't seem to be able to grasp the concept of reality without itself present. In many ways you are your own universe and that universe has a finite existence. It's important to approach life satisfaction in the same way you plan for retirement; if you ignore it, it won't happen.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#169

Post by StavrosK » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:40 PM UTC

raphaelj wrote: post #166

StavrosK wrote: post #116

A few years ago, I decided I didn't want to work 40-hour weeks any more, and asked my employer to switch to 32 (four-day weeks), with a 20% pay cut. Satisfaction-wise, it's been fantastic, as four days isn't long enough that you'll get tired by the week, and three free days is amazing to recharge. Unfortunately, I've found that it's rather career-limiting, as people don't care as much if a lowly developer works four-…

I did the same. Asked my employer to work 4-day weeks to lower the pressure after the stressful period during which we released our first product. Life satisfaction I get from that extra day off if quite huge, as I almost get twice as much free time compared to the time I actually work (3/4 vs 2/5). That time allowed me to get better at playing music and rock climbing and I now have time to read and learn more. Produ…

> I agree with you that working part-time could seem career-limiting, but my opinion is that it's more like an inner feeling than something my supervisors think of me (it's a little bit awkward to work part-time when most of your colleges work full-time).

That's exactly it. I don't think there are any misgivings as to my output, just what having a senior person working 4-day weeks would project. Maybe they're afraid that other people would start choosing that option? I'm not sure.

Then again, I've mostly been getting those comments from other companies, so I think they're just scared of the 4-day thing, and maybe they wouldn't actually be against it after they saw how the relationship works. Some people have told me "I'm worried that someone working four days will be less committed than someone working five", to which my reply is "then, by induction, you'd want everybody working 24/7".

People are generaly apprehensive of new things, and four-day workweeks are no exception.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#170

Post by b4lancesh33t » Tue, Dec 05, 2017, 2:42 PM UTC

dominotw wrote: post #152

spyckie2 wrote: post #7

I'm convinced that our decision for how much effort to exert on work is not governed by the rational part of our brain. It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. I also think overwork is a byproduct of a globally connected society. H…

I think it has more to do with insecurity about future. Sure I can work less and live a pretty cozy life a software developer. But I have no idea what will happen to my profession and to me in 10 yrs. Who knows if I'd be able to keep up with tech in 10yrs, maybe my brain will slow down. My job can be outsourced tomorrow or I can be replaced by someone younger, cheaper and more * hard working* than me. Better to work…

"better to die with money than live without it" as the saying goes. I agree. That's one of my biggest motivators for working hard. That and the challenge and fascination of software. Not ready to ride off into the sunset yet, even though I can probably afford to.