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The compelling case for working less

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Re: The compelling case for working less

#31

Post by kungito »

taneq wrote: post #19
kough wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans are happy if they are relatively well off compared to what they know. This is super true. I've been congratulating myself all month on my new job, paying me BIG BUCKS, compared to my friends. Well, just found out an old friend of mine also found a new job, getting payed literally twice as much as me. Now I'm in a funk and it's irrational and stupid but I can't help but look at the same number in a totally di…

It's not irrational or stupid. It's human. We've evolved to be not merely effective but also competitive.

Isn't competitiveness at the core of biological evolution and not something we have "evolved to"?

Re: The compelling case for working less

#32

Post by wsc981 »

ekianjo wrote: post #10
spyckie2 wrote: post #7

I'm convinced that our decision for how much effort to exert on work is not governed by the rational part of our brain. It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. I also think overwork is a byproduct of a globally connected society. H…

＞ It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. You forget a big part I think: planning for your future. You don't know if you'll have a job 10 years from now. If you have kids you know you need a bunch of cash to make sure they get a re…

  ... You forget a big part I think: planning for your future. ...
What I find remarkable is that in Thailand the people on the country-side generally seem to not think too much about the future. My Thai girlfriend sometimes tells me I should think less about the future, same like the Thai people do. She tells me sometimes I think too much about the future. The Thai people don't care too much about saving up for a pension either, probably because they expect their children to provide for their old age.

Perhaps this view of life has some roots in the Buddhist religion as well.

I do think if I would choose to stay in Europe it would be very hard for me to live in the moment, but I think in Thailand it should be possible. The problem is here you have to pay a lot of taxes, can make little savings and pretty much have to work 40 hours a week to have some disposable income, this is especially true if you have a wife, children, etc... As a software developer it should be easy, when staying in Thailand, to just work perhaps 25 hours a week and have enough income for a very easy, worry-free life.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#33

Post by wsc981 »

dlp211 wrote: post #15
spyckie2 wrote: post #7

I'm convinced that our decision for how much effort to exert on work is not governed by the rational part of our brain. It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. I also think overwork is a byproduct of a globally connected society. H…

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I agree with your premise. I know for a fact that I am better off than my parents, my parents were better off than their parents, and my grandparents were better off than their parents, and in general, this is true for families. Yet, IMO, we are less satisfied and it is because there is a real and growing chasm of people in different income groups in regards to quality o…

   ... I know for a fact that I am better off than my parents ...
I believe for me this is only true because of my job. Because I am a freelance software developer. If I'd have the same occupation as my father or mother, I am sure I would be much worse of today than they were. In The Netherlands taxation has definitely increased over the last decennia and wages haven't kept up with taxation and inflation for most jobs.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#34

Post by jonreem »

wsc981 wrote: post #32
ekianjo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

＞ It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. You forget a big part I think: planning for your future. You don't know if you'll have a job 10 years from now. If you have kids you know you need a bunch of cash to make sure they get a re…

... You forget a big part I think: planning for your future. ... What I find remarkable is that in Thailand the people on the country-side generally seem to not think too much about the future. My Thai girlfriend sometimes tells me I should think less about the future, same like the Thai people do. She tells me sometimes I think too much about the future. The Thai people don't care too much about saving up for a pens…

Not worrying about the future works fantastically until the future becomes the present and you are woefully unprepared. I am all for living in the present and enjoying what you have, but you don't want to just pretend the future isn't coming. It is.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#35

Post by sabas123 »

Swizec wrote: post #28
b0rsuk wrote: post #23

One of older articles linked from HN said the very name "stress" is wrong, because it conjures incorrect expectations. That you can forever endure a certain level of pressure, but will break after a certain point. The term "stress" comes from the world of physics. Instead, the article argued, stress resistance is like a muscle. To develop it, you need to exercise it a bit, then STOP. As someone who made working out h…

And yet professional athletes can train for several hours every day. Sometimes twice. Doing a couple pushups every day won’t kill ya. Being stressed every day however might.

> And yet professional athletes can train for several hours every day. Sometimes twice.

> Doing a couple pushups every day won’t kill ya.

Your now comparing a group that is new to an action and one that is trained in it. However I would like to rephrase OP's comment to: As a beginner you should recognize rest is more important than constant training.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#36

Post by ionstraub »

spyckie2 wrote: post #7

I'm convinced that our decision for how much effort to exert on work is not governed by the rational part of our brain. It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. I also think overwork is a byproduct of a globally connected society. H…

Does it work the other way, too? If I am made aware of someone who makes half of my salary for the 'same' work does it follow that I am happier?

I don't find this very convincing. This would only seem to be the case where the amount of effort is tied to one's salary, but for hourly wages this is much less likely to be true. I also don't think it's a kind of built-in part of our brain structure; this feels like a very "human nature" type argument which is wholly unsubstantiated. It is true that what we consider to be "human nature" (such as the arising of the desire for personal fame) actually originated in definite periods of history. It is also true that various economic orders, those feudalistic, capitalistic, of the slave society etc. bring about different changes in consciousness.

So for that reason, I don't think it's wise to project the desire to be more well off than one's peers as an innate factor especially considering alternative modes of organization in which overwork for this sake does not occur, or at least has no good reason to occur. The trouble with what I'm saying is that humans are 'stamped' with the mark of their current productive forces such that imagining alternatives is not only difficult but it seems utopian and impossible.

I also don't really buy the small society vs big society dichotomy as you have used it here. Even in small societies there are times where people 'earn' more for the same amount of work, are there not? I would argue that the problems you suggest exist are merely exacerbated by a global capitalist society rather than caused by it, but also that they are nevertheless features of any capitalist society.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#37

Post by donpdonp »

kough wrote: post #12
spyckie2 wrote: post #7

I'm convinced that our decision for how much effort to exert on work is not governed by the rational part of our brain. It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. I also think overwork is a byproduct of a globally connected society. H…

> Humans are happy if they are relatively well off compared to what they know. This is super true. I've been congratulating myself all month on my new job, paying me BIG BUCKS, compared to my friends. Well, just found out an old friend of mine also found a new job, getting payed literally twice as much as me. Now I'm in a funk and it's irrational and stupid but I can't help but look at the same number in a totally di…

The most effective way to be unhappy - comparing yourself to others. Its far more satisfying to 'impress yourself', ie do better than you did before. I also like to remember that such comparisons are usually between your every day existance and their 'highlight reel'.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#38

Post by taneq »

kungito wrote: post #31
taneq wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not irrational or stupid. It's human. We've evolved to be not merely effective but also competitive.

Isn't competitiveness at the core of biological evolution and not something we have "evolved to"?

I don't understand the distinction. Competition is at the core of biological evolution and so we, like all living creatures, have evolved to be competitive.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#39

Post by ikeyany »

spyckie2 wrote: post #7

I'm convinced that our decision for how much effort to exert on work is not governed by the rational part of our brain. It's part primal - fear of insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare favorably to others - and part culture and habit. I also think overwork is a byproduct of a globally connected society. H…

These are the arguments Ted Kaczynski laid out, if I'm not mistaken.

Re: The compelling case for working less

#40

Post by gajju3588 »

Disclaimer: Haven't read the full article, but got the gist.

I have a counterpoint to this. I am from India where if you work normally you will be spending your life in conditions which are not very healthy for you and your family. Your home will be small and in a society where neighbourhood will be lacking in basic facilities like sanitation, security etc. You might remain happy if you have great friends and a supporting family. But to improve your living standards and getting a healthy lifestyle will ask you for a decent pay which will force you to work more than your peers. And as this is India, the workforce is generally cheap and very competitive so you have to be really good and beat a lot of other people to climb the ladder. And I dare say you can't do that by just doing 'less'.

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