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Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

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Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#261
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually outlined why I thought they were wrong, and shut your mouth is clearly attached to not making subjective statements about other people's belongings (which, I absolutely stand by as inappropriate) -- so yes, an angry but on-point comment is better than just throwing out "lolsux" uselessly, or in the case above, based on wrong information.

If you keep posting like that, or like this for that matter, we will ban you. Please clean up your act. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

As I've said before, you'll have to ban me then, if you really believe I'm a negative contribution.

I'm not going to stop responding in reasonable, human, and direct ways to comments.

I'm also going to note, yet again, your highly biased enforcement:

Nothing to someone who did insult me, just random dog-piling based on your whims because you happened to notice an emotional outburst.

That's terrible community management.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#262
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the attack there? It's a statement of fact.

If I say "You have a big nose, it makes you ugly" as the first line in my email, it may well be a "statement of fact" and yet still be a personal attack. Your implication that a statement of fact cannot be a personal attack is untrue. Whether the OP has or has not written Posix utilities in rust is of no relevance to the actual argument whatsoever, it is just a way to have a dig at the OP.

Nobody said anything about anyone's nose though. He said "you didn't write them". This absolutely has relevance to the problem of them not being written. Writing emails does not solve a software problem. Writing software does. If you want to solve the problem, do it.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#263
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have told me for the longest time that Java is a shitty language I shouldn't be using. Most of those people said C++ would be a far better idea without even bothering to show any reason why C++ would be more suited besides "Java is slow, huahuaha, it is shitty, huahahaha". So, I have to admit I take a bit of a pleasure of seeing those people getting challenged on their presumption that C++ is the greatest lang…

> People have told me for the longest time that Java is a shitty language I shouldn't be using. Java is a great language in theory, the problem with Java is that people have evolved to use layers upon layers upon even more layers of abstractions, the tooling is horrenduos (try configuring maven vs npm) and especially all complex Java applications end up being as slow as molasses (e.g. SAP GUI, Lotus Notes, Eclipse, j…

> try configuring maven vs npm

That's kind of a weird comparison since npm is a package manager and maven is a build tool, packager, dependency resolver, test runner, ...

A better (but still lacking) comparison would be "try configuring maven vs. npm+webpack", and then I'd say... oh god, I'll take maven in a heartbeat.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#264
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you keep posting like that, or like this for that matter, we will ban you. Please clean up your act. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

As I've said before, you'll have to ban me then, if you really believe I'm a negative contribution. I'm not going to stop responding in reasonable, human, and direct ways to comments. I'm also going to note, yet again, your highly biased enforcement: Nothing to someone who did insult me, just random dog-piling based on your whims because you happened to notice an emotional outburst. That's terrible community manageme…

"Shut your mouth" is indefensible on HN, and pointing at the other person is a low-quality move. Since you don't want to use this site as intended or take responsibility for misbehavior, I've banned the account.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#265
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you even find an i386 processor these days?

In the OpenBSD world i386 == x86. And it's pretty easy to find an x86 processor now a days.

… such as? You're merely restating the claim, without providing any proof.

Consumer machines, AFAICT, are all amd64 (or x86_64, if you prefer that name). I understood the original post to mean i386 == x86, and I agree — where do you even find an x86 today (for sale, in a non-niche use case, i.e., "pretty easy")?

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think anyone is arguing that we should throw everything out, however for all my greenfield stuff Rust has been a welcome breath of fresh air. If you can write things from scratch in a clear room fashion, perhaps. C++ is very good, when you need to integrate a lot of 'low-level' libraries (that are alredy in C or C++) together in a meaninful way, like for instance, browsers do. Like the capacity to 'talk' wi…

I mean this in the most non-confrontational way: have you actually used/looked at Rust? The reason I ask is just about every item you laid out I've had the opposite experience. Talking with C/C++ is trivial with bindgen and clang. Embedding in C++ is likewise straightforward. I mean Firefox is one of the larger C++ codebases out there. The package manager is great and makes dropping in things much less painful. On th…

The real problem is when it's not just binding: it's actually using metaprogramming, which is a huge part of why I use C++. There's no equivalent to blaze or eigen for linear algebra in Rust, and much of that heavy lifting is handled by templates. (There are some libraries with rudimental expression template-like behavior, but nothing as sophisticated.)

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are those of us who have been writing C++ for decades and are sick of the footguns and build systems but have never had a viable alternative before. I don't think anyone is arguing that we should throw everything out, however for all my greenfield stuff Rust has been a welcome breath of fresh air. Yeah, there are some people who are a little too over the top but a large part of the support behind Rust is from t…

> I don't think anyone is arguing that we should throw everything out, however for all my greenfield stuff Rust has been a welcome breath of fresh air. If you can write things from scratch in a clear room fashion, perhaps. C++ is very good, when you need to integrate a lot of 'low-level' libraries (that are alredy in C or C++) together in a meaninful way, like for instance, browsers do. Like the capacity to 'talk' wi…

> C++ is very good, when you need to integrate a lot of 'low-level' libraries ... like for instance, browsers do.

That's sorta funny that you use that example, since rust is a Mozilla project, and they've already moved some parts of Firefox over to rust, and plan to move more in the future. Clearly this is not an impediment; reasonable C/C++ interop was a must-have for rust's design.

> If you are already a experienced C++ dev, compared to modern C++, Rust has very little to offer.

That's a weird argument to make. Essentially you're arguing that you should never learn any new languages once you have proficiency in something similar? That would seem to be a bit short sighted.

> ... at least not for people with large codebases already in C++.

Sure. No one's saying "throw out all your C++ code and rewrite everything in rust" (and if anyone is, they can be safely ignored). But that doesn't preclude taking a look at some parts of your code that might benefit from being written in a safer language, or rewriting small tools in rust, or considering it for new projects.

> When you are younger, programming languages look like that secret ingredient that will turn whatever you do into a magical tool.. But experience tells you that nothing beats hard work or that you should understand the strenght and weakness of each language, and know when and how to use it.

No one's saying languages are magic, just that, by some metrics, some are objectively better. This might be an odd example, but I did Java for many years before switching to Scala a couple years ago. In the past few months I've had to go back to Java, and it's been frustrating that it's so easy to write certain classes of bugs that I just never see or write in Scala. Does that make Scala some magical tool that fixes all my problems and means I don't have to do any work? No, of course not. But it is objectively better than Java by some metrics (and sadly, worse by others).

> modern C++ is already secure enough

That's a pretty bold claim, and I'm certain it's not true. You might have a different idea of what "enough" is than I do, though. I'd believe that the "default" state-of-the-art C++ use is more secure than it was 10 years ago, but that doesn't mean that a language like rust can't offer superior safety guarantees.

And there's something to be said about encouraging safer practices through language features and convention. If you can make certain kinds of errors in C++ programs (I don't see pointer arithmetic going away any time soon, or people always using vectors and the like and never raw arrays), then you (or someone else) will, regardless if there are safer ways that help you avoid those kinds of errors. Given a language with a huge surface area like C++, and disagreements on what are the "safe" parts to use, it's inevitable.

> If you throw a language like Swift into the equation.. particularly i think they(C++ and Swift) form a lovely and unbeatable couple.

Despite Swift's open source status, I really don't see it making any meaningful foothold outside macOS/iOS.

I don't have a horse in this race. I abandoned C++ years ago, and I've only started learning rust a few weeks ago. I like it, but I have a lot to learn, and I've already found some rough spots that aren't so great. No tool is perfect.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean this in the most non-confrontational way: have you actually used/looked at Rust? The reason I ask is just about every item you laid out I've had the opposite experience. Talking with C/C++ is trivial with bindgen and clang. Embedding in C++ is likewise straightforward. I mean Firefox is one of the larger C++ codebases out there. The package manager is great and makes dropping in things much less painful. On th…

The real problem is when it's not just binding: it's actually using metaprogramming, which is a huge part of why I use C++. There's no equivalent to blaze or eigen for linear algebra in Rust, and much of that heavy lifting is handled by templates. (There are some libraries with rudimental expression template-like behavior, but nothing as sophisticated.)

This is the sort of thing that bothers me about these kinds of arguments. Sure, you're always going to be able to find certain domains where existing libraries or language features make a certain ecosystem very well suited. And that's fine. No one's saying to discard the best tool for the job for another one that might have some general advantages but won't actually get you where you need to go.

But there are a ton of domains where C++ doesn't have anything special to offer and you could just as reasonably write the code in rust.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#269
post #182

I have spent a long time using alternative languages. I'm a compiler geek. However, most of these languages ultimately lead to disappointment. Not because they necessarily fail, but rather because the problem of writing software is not a problem of language or platform. It is a problem of thought and abstraction. So, the big promises that these new languages and platforms make will ultimately only be fulfilled for a…

A couple of minor notes. OpenBSD does not have the Bourne shell. One gets the C shell, the Korn shell, and the Korn shell in POSIX mode: no Bourne shell; nor Bourne Again shell. It is interesting to note that in FreeBSD Perl was removed from the base operating system about a decade and a half ago. So there's apparently an argument to be had that knowledge of Perl need not be required. (-:

You are correct on both counts.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#270
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a flipside. That's a restatement of my criticism of these subreddits. There is a difference between constructive criticism and/or correction (which I am all for), and belittling, demeaning, insulting, and cursing at people.

There is a difference between constructive criticism and/or correction (which I am all for), and belittling, demeaning, insulting, and cursing at people. IME a lot of thin skinned people on the internet always view the former as the latter. It's equally as tiresome.

IME a lot of people use "people need to be less thin skinned" as a weak rationalization for dickish behavior that would get them fired from their job and/or ostracized from their real-life social circle. But since it's online and no one knows who you really are, it's somehow "acceptable". No, it isn't, and communities that encourage or allow that type of behavior are incredibly toxic.
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