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Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

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Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#201

Post by 2trill2spill »

masklinn wrote: post #172
npsimons wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> then points out that rustc can't compile itself on i386, which is relevant… how? I'm actually gobsmacked this is the case. There used to be a saying, only half-joking, that a language that can't host/compile/bootstrap itself is nothing more than a toy. As others have more eloquently pointed out, it shouldn't have to be explained why people who write operating systems and compilers would consider that a no-go.

> I'm actually gobsmacked this is the case. So gobsmacked you apparently couldn't even begin to attempt answering the question but felt you just had to go on a rant as irrelevant as you believe it's righteous, uh? > There used to be a saying, only half-joking, that a language that can't host/compile/bootstrap itself is nothing more than a toy. As others have more eloquently pointed out, it shouldn't have to be explai…

> Rust has been self-hosted for almost as long as it's existed. The boostrapping OCaml compiler was left behind back in 2011.

Not on x86 which is what this whole conversation is talking about. So if OpenBSD used rust in base they would have to drop support for x86.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#202

Post by HumanDrivenDev »

stochastic_monk wrote: post #133
reggieband wrote: post #116

I remember I stopped frequenting /r/programming when it became this weird Haskell echo chamber. It was a bubble where a small but vocal faction inside the community seemed to over react to any criticism. They methodically and tirelessly responded to every comment with an endless litany of "facts" showing how Haskell could do anything from os kernels to game programming. They touted every industry mention of Haskell u…

It's become clear to me that a lot of the Rust fanatics don't actually know how C++ works and and Rust is their first low-level language. The ones I'm talking about know enough to make them sound like they know what they're talking about unless you actually know what they're trying and failing to accurately describe. It sounds and seems like a language worthy of more investigation on my part, but I have to agree that…

It sounds and seems like a language worthy of more investigation on my part, but I have to agree that the militant, presumptive attacks on any language besides their Chosen One has left a bad taste in my mouth.

This 100 times over. It's a language that seems novel and strong enough to stand on its own merits - but there's a section of the community that makes me want to stay away.

I wish they'd spend less effort re-writing already working tools in C and more effort writing new, better tools. A drop in replacement for "ls" isn't that exciting for me.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#203

Post by user5994461 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #163
sgift wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have told me for the longest time that Java is a shitty language I shouldn't be using. Most of those people said C++ would be a far better idea without even bothering to show any reason why C++ would be more suited besides "Java is slow, huahuaha, it is shitty, huahahaha". So, I have to admit I take a bit of a pleasure of seeing those people getting challenged on their presumption that C++ is the greatest lang…

> People have told me for the longest time that Java is a shitty language I shouldn't be using. Java is a great language in theory, the problem with Java is that people have evolved to use layers upon layers upon even more layers of abstractions, the tooling is horrenduos (try configuring maven vs npm) and especially all complex Java applications end up being as slow as molasses (e.g. SAP GUI, Lotus Notes, Eclipse, j…

The java tooling is fantastic... when coming from the C++ world.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#204

Post by 2trill2spill »

drb91 wrote: post #192
2trill2spill wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems like a bit of a trite point unless many rust developers are actually working inside i386. Though the compiler itself might not work very well in i386. Trite point? OpenBSD supports 1386[1] if they pull a rust compiler into base and start rewriting things in rust, then they can't support 1386. Dropping a supported platform is not a "trite point". [1]: https://www.openbsd.org/plat.html

How do you even find an i386 processor these days?

In the OpenBSD world i386 == x86. And it's pretty easy to find an x86 processor now a days.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#205

Post by HumanDrivenDev »

teilo wrote: post #134
reggieband wrote: post #116

I remember I stopped frequenting /r/programming when it became this weird Haskell echo chamber. It was a bubble where a small but vocal faction inside the community seemed to over react to any criticism. They methodically and tirelessly responded to every comment with an endless litany of "facts" showing how Haskell could do anything from os kernels to game programming. They touted every industry mention of Haskell u…

I find most of the programming/lang/framework subreddits intolerable. I dip into those waters occasionally, but unsub pretty quick. Too many egos, trolls, asshats, and too much noise. There are notable exceptions, like /r/elixir. But I abandoned /r/python and /r/django months ago, and won't be back. I'm an adult, and prefer to discuss things those who will show at least a modicum of respect to others.

The flipside of that is - I'm an adult, I want to talk to people who can handle critiques and debate without getting unduly upset. Disagreement != trolling.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#206

Post by glogla »

SomeStupidPoint wrote: post #195
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Win10 just doesn't work well on 2GiB. Compressed pages are nice but not enough to prevent swapping. It also doesn't help that MS prevents you from running 32-bit on modern hardware to alleviate some of the memory pressure. The solution is to install 32-bit Linux on it. Then it won't suck.

Firstly, shut your mouth -- you have no business telling me that my computers "suck" when they serve my needs. It doesn't suck and is one of the most pleasant machines I own due to small size and low upkeep of the OS. 32-bit Win10 works fine on dual-core 2GB of RAM for almost all of my uses (and is the one that shipped with it -- so perhaps check your sources before posting), with notable exceptions being Electron ap…

> Firstly, shut your mouth

> You should refrain from posting comments like you did here -- they make the community worse.

I don't even know what to say.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#207

Post by bjz_ »

teilo wrote: post #134
reggieband wrote: post #116

I remember I stopped frequenting /r/programming when it became this weird Haskell echo chamber. It was a bubble where a small but vocal faction inside the community seemed to over react to any criticism. They methodically and tirelessly responded to every comment with an endless litany of "facts" showing how Haskell could do anything from os kernels to game programming. They touted every industry mention of Haskell u…

I find most of the programming/lang/framework subreddits intolerable. I dip into those waters occasionally, but unsub pretty quick. Too many egos, trolls, asshats, and too much noise. There are notable exceptions, like /r/elixir. But I abandoned /r/python and /r/django months ago, and won't be back. I'm an adult, and prefer to discuss things those who will show at least a modicum of respect to others.

/r/rust is actually one of the better ones, thankfully.

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#208

Post by vvanders »

HumanDrivenDev wrote: post #202
stochastic_monk wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's become clear to me that a lot of the Rust fanatics don't actually know how C++ works and and Rust is their first low-level language. The ones I'm talking about know enough to make them sound like they know what they're talking about unless you actually know what they're trying and failing to accurately describe. It sounds and seems like a language worthy of more investigation on my part, but I have to agree that…

It sounds and seems like a language worthy of more investigation on my part, but I have to agree that the militant, presumptive attacks on any language besides their Chosen One has left a bad taste in my mouth. This 100 times over. It's a language that seems novel and strong enough to stand on its own merits - but there's a section of the community that makes me want to stay away. I wish they'd spend less effort re-w…

Pretty sure that's already happening with tools like ripgrep: https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#209

Post by cies »

mschuster91 wrote: post #163
sgift wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have told me for the longest time that Java is a shitty language I shouldn't be using. Most of those people said C++ would be a far better idea without even bothering to show any reason why C++ would be more suited besides "Java is slow, huahuaha, it is shitty, huahahaha". So, I have to admit I take a bit of a pleasure of seeing those people getting challenged on their presumption that C++ is the greatest lang…

> People have told me for the longest time that Java is a shitty language I shouldn't be using. Java is a great language in theory, the problem with Java is that people have evolved to use layers upon layers upon even more layers of abstractions, the tooling is horrenduos (try configuring maven vs npm) and especially all complex Java applications end up being as slow as molasses (e.g. SAP GUI, Lotus Notes, Eclipse, j…

> try configuring maven vs npm

vs Cargo (Rust) - http://doc.crates.io/build-script.html (simplicity)

vs elm-package (Elm) - https://github.com/elm-lang/elm-package (automatic semver compliance)

vs Stack (Haskell) - https://docs.haskellstack.org/en/stable/GUIDE/ with stackage-sets (packages tested to work well together) - https://www.stackage.org/

Re: Integrating “safe” languages into OpenBSD?

#210

Post by Avshalom »

vvanders wrote: post #200
stochastic_monk wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's become clear to me that a lot of the Rust fanatics don't actually know how C++ works and and Rust is their first low-level language. The ones I'm talking about know enough to make them sound like they know what they're talking about unless you actually know what they're trying and failing to accurately describe. It sounds and seems like a language worthy of more investigation on my part, but I have to agree that…

There are those of us who have been writing C++ for decades and are sick of the footguns and build systems but have never had a viable alternative before. I don't think anyone is arguing that we should throw everything out, however for all my greenfield stuff Rust has been a welcome breath of fresh air. Yeah, there are some people who are a little too over the top but a large part of the support behind Rust is from t…

(well I mean there has been Ada* for ages)

*or fortran or pascal

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