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My offer numbers from big companies

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Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#241

Post by lozenge »

Nursie wrote: post #166
quickthrower2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider that it might be the reverse. Why are we paid so low? How come companies extract so much profit from UK developers? Can businesses get away with being much less efficient with dev resources around the world vs. USA?

Honestly, I think most development work in the UK is crap,and most of the small and medium-sized companies out there are producing bad software, slowly. They can't afford to pay more. They offer bad salaries, they get people with low productivity and low reward expectations. The people running the company have low expectations of their engineers and the whole sorry mess just stumbles along barely holding its head abo…

I know many developers who have come to London for better jobs, but not many who are leaving the UK altogether. Are you including London on your assessment?

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#242

Post by taneq »

syllogism wrote: post #192
ChicagoDave wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to that site, I'd need to make over $200k to meet my same standard of living, but I still think someone with two years experience can't come close to my knowledge of software development. There are inherent limitations. Of course if the job is to write code without any comment about the big picture and without complaint about hours, then maybe it is competitive. And that signing bonus? That just doesn't tra…

All else being equal 32 years experience will count against, you though --- and this is quite rational... These companies want to hire for trajectory. If someone's gotten to a great level of skills 2 years out of university, that says good things about where they'll be in 5 or 10 years.

By your logic, all they say is "in 5 or 10 years you'll be a has-been".

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#243

Post by taneq »

King-Aaron wrote: post #8
simonbarker87 wrote: post #4

I live in the UK, to me these numbers are insane. How are these salaries at that work experience possible? Is the pay increase from then on slow? Are these salaries sustainable for the industry long term? I know experienced professionals who would be considered successful in the UK who finish their careers nowhere near this level of salary (not programmers but certainly engineers). I’m astounded.

This is what I wonder also. It's like here in Australia, where blue-collar truck drivers can get paid $200k/year. It doesn't seem sustainable... because it isn't. Edit: This has resulted in what people are calling a "two-speed" economy - http://archive.treasury.gov.au/documents/1421/HTML/docshell....

> where blue-collar truck drivers can get paid $200k/year.

Remember that this is for a specialist driving a haul truck on a remote mine site, working 12 hour days on a 3-in-1 swing or worse (ie. three weeks on, one week off, only one day off out of 14). You literally have no life.

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#244

Post by taneq »

King-Aaron wrote: post #28
cyberferret wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I knew a 19 year old girl who was driving trucks in a mine in Western Australia. She was on $180K/year. She gave it up after a year though apparently, and I don't know where she is these days so cannot ask her why she left a job that was paying that much only a couple of years out of high school.

I can give you some direct insight on that. First of all, she would have experienced severe gender bias. I don't think it needs an explanation when you consider a demographic of mostly low-to-moderately-educated men in the workforce and everyone living in fairly close quarters. Secondly, the conditions are harsh. You work around 14-hour days in 35-45 degree C heat. This wears out people very quickly. It can get so ho…

I work in this industry and the women I've talked to don't seem to feel gender bias is that much of an issue. Your second and third points are much bigger factors - in some parts of the industry (admin, environmental management, safety, camp support - ie. desk jobs in airconditioned offices) I'd guess 40%+ of the workforce would be women, but other roles with more physical discomfort (mechanical fitters, civil works, machine operators) are almost exclusively male.

Depression and suicide are a huge risk factor for FIFO workers. It's shit work.

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#245

Post by Bahamut »

gonehome wrote: post #55
lquist wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple thoughts: 1) This engineer is getting offers from FB, Goog, etc. They are definitely in the top 1% of engineers in terms of interviewing ability if not in terms of engineering ability. 2) No salary increases do not slow down. A friend of mine has 4 years of experience, is a top 1-5% engineer/interviewer and had multiple offers at 350-500k. 3) Sustainable? No. This is a supply/demand issue and supply is increas…

I think they actually do slow down in most cases. While some engineers may continue to get promoted and get large bumps I think most are probably in the 150k-200k (base+bonus) range after a couple years.

FWIW, my BigCo has base comp in that range for the second lowest level. I think comp gets even higher after a few years, but there is pressure at these companies to reach a certain tier in a couple of years. For competant engineers able to learn & adapt, they will reach it just fine, but I imagine there is a percentage who struggle as well.

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#246

Post by Nursie »

lozenge wrote: post #241
Nursie wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think most development work in the UK is crap,and most of the small and medium-sized companies out there are producing bad software, slowly. They can't afford to pay more. They offer bad salaries, they get people with low productivity and low reward expectations. The people running the company have low expectations of their engineers and the whole sorry mess just stumbles along barely holding its head abo…

I know many developers who have come to London for better jobs, but not many who are leaving the UK altogether. Are you including London on your assessment?

A lot less so than the rest of the country. And there are pockets of competence elsewhere I'm sure.

I don't know many people who have left the country for dev opportunities elsewhere either, and most I know eventually leave London for quality of life reasons. It's just my comment on the UK industry as I have experienced it in the south east and south of the country.

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#247

Post by richardknop »

Nursie wrote: post #246
lozenge wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many developers who have come to London for better jobs, but not many who are leaving the UK altogether. Are you including London on your assessment?

A lot less so than the rest of the country. And there are pockets of competence elsewhere I'm sure. I don't know many people who have left the country for dev opportunities elsewhere either, and most I know eventually leave London for quality of life reasons. It's just my comment on the UK industry as I have experienced it in the south east and south of the country.

I think it's the same everywhere in Europe. Unless you are in a big metropolis with lots of financial power behind it, IT will be treated as a cost centre, salaries and quality will be sub par.

The same in Germany, if you are not in Berlin/Munich, most jobs in IT will be really bad. Not sure about US but I'd assume best jobs are in SF/NY/Seattle and other places will have "shitty" jobs compared to that.

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#248

Post by richardknop »

Nursie wrote: post #142

These are insane compared to the UK. 17 years ago I started out on £21k, which was considered pretty reasonable. Two years later I switched job and got £35k and over the next few years until I hit the 10 year mark I pushed it up to almost £50k. At that point AFAICT I was actually doing better than average. I'm now contracting in the financial world, earning well over twice that figure, but while I can match the salar…

Yes, it's the bonuses and stock options that make the compensation in SV ridiculous. If we compared just base salaries then SV would be ahead but comparisons wouldn't be so silly. But all these sweet RSUs and cash bonuses that are standard in SV make their overall yearly compensation really insane (plus things like 50k sign up bonus... I got no sign up bonus when I moved to London from EU). I wonder why software engineers don't get those kind of bonuses / extra cash on top of base salary in London.

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#249

Post by hocuspocus »

richardknop wrote: post #234
hocuspocus wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a job and any kind of social life, going through 200~300 questions like OP is going to take you more than a few weeks. A lot of people complain because this is the very example of cargo culting, you hire people who went through the same questions and reject those who haven't, even though it has no bearing on their ability to do the job.

Sure but you are forgetting a key factor. Once you get Google/FB/Amazon (or to a lesser extent even a unicorn like Netflix/Airbnb/Dropbox etc) on your CV, that will help you tremendously in your career. You will get shortlisted for top jobs and bombarded by opportunities by recruiters forever and you will be able to skip any screenings and phone interviews and just go for final onsite interview mostly. Investing seve…

I've had interviews with most companies you mention. Getting in touch with a recruiter and passing the phone screenings hasn't really been a problem.

Maybe I'm not smart enough, but on-site rounds are a different story. I've practiced CTCI and solved my fair share of questions on Leetcode. Yet I find pretty hard to get back into it on a short notice. It's not a one-time investment. I assume I'm not the only one since

- The on-site to offer conversion ratio is typically between 6:1 and 8:1 at such companies.

- Most people do better with practice. It implies that a standardized process is biased towards people who have the opportunity and time to interview a lot for fun. (Some companies let teams do their own hiring though, where this is less of an issue).

Not everyone lives in the valley or in a place with a high concentration of tech companies. At least the Microsoft-era questions such as "how much would you charge to clean all the windows in Seattle" were more equally silly and unfair to everyone, including outsiders.

Re: My offer numbers from big companies

#250

Post by richardknop »

hocuspocus wrote: post #249
richardknop wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but you are forgetting a key factor. Once you get Google/FB/Amazon (or to a lesser extent even a unicorn like Netflix/Airbnb/Dropbox etc) on your CV, that will help you tremendously in your career. You will get shortlisted for top jobs and bombarded by opportunities by recruiters forever and you will be able to skip any screenings and phone interviews and just go for final onsite interview mostly. Investing seve…

I've had interviews with most companies you mention. Getting in touch with a recruiter and passing the phone screenings hasn't really been a problem. Maybe I'm not smart enough, but on-site rounds are a different story. I've practiced CTCI and solved my fair share of questions on Leetcode. Yet I find pretty hard to get back into it on a short notice. It's not a one-time investment. I assume I'm not the only one since…

Well I applied for a job at both Netflix & Twitch and never heard back from them. I think if I had Google/Apple/Facebook/Amazon on my CV I might have gotten more recognition. Just my personal opinion, I could be wrong.

Funny thing is, I have been called by Google, Amazon and FB recruiters in London couple of times. But I never went for onsite interview. I figured they can't really match contractor pay and they only outsource "shitty" jobs to London (I told recruiters my contractor rate and asked them if they can match/beat it and answer was no).

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