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Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

sciencemag.org

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Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#11
post #9

Here is the question that interests me... For over 100 years, commercial fishing has been an issue. Atlantic cod was the canonical tragedy of the commons, with early multinational agreements that attempted to fix it. They're still shaky. On land, we hit a point a long time ago. American Bison are a very illustrative example. Guns and railroads could harvest the whole population in a few seasons. Factory conveyor belt…

We've certainly outgrown unrestricted harvests.

But it's likely there is some sustainable level of harvest. Whitetail deer are an interesting case, predators have been squeezed out so hunting is an important check on the population and my impression is that we tend to manage for a big hunt (license and tourism $$$) rather than a healthy population level.

Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#12
post #2

The author wrote twelve paragraphs, yet didn't care to mention explicitly which nine nations reached a deal. The answer according to NY Times[1] is the following: > To take effect, the agreement on a high-latitude fishing ban must be signed by all the countries involved: the United States, Norway, Denmark, Canada and Russia, which all have Arctic shorelines; and South Korea, China, Japan, the European Union and Icela…

Current tax bill in US is opening up arctic to explore for oil. So don't have too much hope for this...

Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#13
post #9

Here is the question that interests me... For over 100 years, commercial fishing has been an issue. Atlantic cod was the canonical tragedy of the commons, with early multinational agreements that attempted to fix it. They're still shaky. On land, we hit a point a long time ago. American Bison are a very illustrative example. Guns and railroads could harvest the whole population in a few seasons. Factory conveyor belt…

We've certainly outgrown unrestricted harvests. But it's likely there is some sustainable level of harvest. Whitetail deer are an interesting case, predators have been squeezed out so hunting is an important check on the population and my impression is that we tend to manage for a big hunt (license and tourism $$$) rather than a healthy population level.

There is, in a theoretical sense. Possibly not in a practical sense.

A recreational herd/fishery is very different from a commercial one. The scale is smaller. The self interested political incentives are usually overshadowed by social/ecological/altruistic interests. There are no "commercial viability" concerns, so all sorts of arbitrary restrictions aren't a problem. The incentive to cheat is much smaller. Recreational hunters and fisherman always make arbitrary rules about what's "sporting" anyway. Fly fishing only. No baiting... These are usually ways of lowering productivity, not increasing it. The whole thing dovetails nicely with ecosystem preservation, etc.

Commercially, the US decided a long time ago that deer and such should not be commercial commodities. Did they leave some sustainable harvest potential the table? Sure. How big was it? Not big^. But, they took away huge risks of ecological harm.

Same question for ocean fisheries. Are there some theoretically sustainable methods/quotas/rules? Sure. How well will they be written & policed in an international, commercial environment? Questionable? How important is commercial fishing of wild populations to us? Not very, and less important every year.

^Obviously, this is relative. In the context preindustrial economies and their economic output, deer (or trout, etc.) may have been very important. In the 1800s, less so. In the 21s century, the potential contribution of wild deer to the economy is miniscule. Just like you say, recreational value is probably more valuable and than the actual outputs (meat, hides, etc.) even in money terms.

Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#14
post #9

Here is the question that interests me... For over 100 years, commercial fishing has been an issue. Atlantic cod was the canonical tragedy of the commons, with early multinational agreements that attempted to fix it. They're still shaky. On land, we hit a point a long time ago. American Bison are a very illustrative example. Guns and railroads could harvest the whole population in a few seasons. Factory conveyor belt…

Commercial fishing is fine, as is hunting - as long as there are healthy populations and the fishing/hunting is within the bounds by which the population of the animals can regrow. Ironically, without the absurd overfishing of the past, we could sustain much higher fishing quotas today than we can with the decimated fish population.

Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#15
post #2

The author wrote twelve paragraphs, yet didn't care to mention explicitly which nine nations reached a deal. The answer according to NY Times[1] is the following: > To take effect, the agreement on a high-latitude fishing ban must be signed by all the countries involved: the United States, Norway, Denmark, Canada and Russia, which all have Arctic shorelines; and South Korea, China, Japan, the European Union and Icela…

Trump really ruined it. All I can think about now is, is this another agreement that the US is gonna sign and then bail? When are agreements for real for the US? These kinds of multinational agreements are made to tackle the big problems with long run goals. If every other executive office is gonna hand pick which agreements to meet, they are meaningless.

Signing agreements with no intent to enforce them is a universal problem, not a particularly US problem, nor is failing to fully ratify them even after a "signature". The political calculus is simple; you win plaudits from people who pay attention to words over results (which is a LOT of people in politics, including a lot of people in charge of money flow), and signatures are cheap, results are expensive. There's a lot of signing things that don't ever happen. In general when I hear about an international agreement, I tend to assume it's a no-op until proved further. You can't even get international cooperation with something as economically beneficial to its participants as OPEC, let alone things bigger than that and with fewer positive monetary implications.

Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#16
post #14
post #9

Here is the question that interests me... For over 100 years, commercial fishing has been an issue. Atlantic cod was the canonical tragedy of the commons, with early multinational agreements that attempted to fix it. They're still shaky. On land, we hit a point a long time ago. American Bison are a very illustrative example. Guns and railroads could harvest the whole population in a few seasons. Factory conveyor belt…

Commercial fishing is fine, as is hunting - as long as there are healthy populations and the fishing/hunting is within the bounds by which the population of the animals can regrow. Ironically, without the absurd overfishing of the past, we could sustain much higher fishing quotas today than we can with the decimated fish population.

There a couple of relatives in there.

Sustainable -how sustainable? If the only bar is sustaining the annual harvest for the medium term, that's not the highest bar. Commercial fishing can have it mpacts within those bounds that we might still find unacceptable. .Especially so if you consider how little knowledge we really have about ocean ecologies.

I for one think the goal should be recovery. If you look at old records of major fisheries, I think it's clear that they're depleted now relative to the past. Atlantic cod is well documented. You can see footage of old Australian tuna fishing operations. Clearly, current populations are far smaller. East Atlantic Mackerel fisheries. Herring. The entire mediteranean sea. Salmon...

The other relative is relative value. Even if fisheries can support 1950s (pick a year) harvests, the size/value of that harvest as a percentage of our economy is a lot smaller. This is a long term trend. Relative importance of commercial fish harvests declines over time.

What I am suggesting is that there is a point where it's not worth it.

Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#18
post #2

The author wrote twelve paragraphs, yet didn't care to mention explicitly which nine nations reached a deal. The answer according to NY Times[1] is the following: > To take effect, the agreement on a high-latitude fishing ban must be signed by all the countries involved: the United States, Norway, Denmark, Canada and Russia, which all have Arctic shorelines; and South Korea, China, Japan, the European Union and Icela…

Trump really ruined it. All I can think about now is, is this another agreement that the US is gonna sign and then bail? When are agreements for real for the US? These kinds of multinational agreements are made to tackle the big problems with long run goals. If every other executive office is gonna hand pick which agreements to meet, they are meaningless.

It was actually George's administration that changed ratification from merely being a pro forma process to a meaningful step of legislative oversight. George Washington, that is. This was done because neither the president nor Senate were happy with having the Senate be involved in the entire treaty-making process, and so they switched to the ratification step to fulfill the requirements in the Constitution to adhere to the "advice and consent of the Senate" rules. Other nations, as they gained parliamentary democracies, saw what the US did here and adopted it in their legislative practices.

Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#19
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commercial fishing is fine, as is hunting - as long as there are healthy populations and the fishing/hunting is within the bounds by which the population of the animals can regrow. Ironically, without the absurd overfishing of the past, we could sustain much higher fishing quotas today than we can with the decimated fish population.

There a couple of relatives in there. Sustainable -how sustainable? If the only bar is sustaining the annual harvest for the medium term, that's not the highest bar. Commercial fishing can have it mpacts within those bounds that we might still find unacceptable. .Especially so if you consider how little knowledge we really have about ocean ecologies. I for one think the goal should be recovery. If you look at old rec…

Well, yes. I was speaking about the fundamental question talking about healt ecosystems. With todays almost erradicated populations there is little doubt that we should mostly stop fishing.

Re: Nations agree to ban fishing in Arctic Ocean for at least 16 years

#20
post #14
post #9

Here is the question that interests me... For over 100 years, commercial fishing has been an issue. Atlantic cod was the canonical tragedy of the commons, with early multinational agreements that attempted to fix it. They're still shaky. On land, we hit a point a long time ago. American Bison are a very illustrative example. Guns and railroads could harvest the whole population in a few seasons. Factory conveyor belt…

Commercial fishing is fine, as is hunting - as long as there are healthy populations and the fishing/hunting is within the bounds by which the population of the animals can regrow. Ironically, without the absurd overfishing of the past, we could sustain much higher fishing quotas today than we can with the decimated fish population.

tautology. it is fine as long as it is fine. of course!
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