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Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

nytimes.com

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Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#2

Post by djrobstep »

Equality of opportunity is a terrible concept. Even if we somehow solve it, it would just be shuffling people up and down the ladder of an unfair system.

Instead, we should be dismantling the ladder. Real equality means equality of outcomes.

Most people who talk about "equal opportunity" do so because they want to avoid talking about real equality and its implications.

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#3

Post by miketery »

djrobstep wrote: post #2

Equality of opportunity is a terrible concept. Even if we somehow solve it, it would just be shuffling people up and down the ladder of an unfair system. Instead, we should be dismantling the ladder. Real equality means equality of outcomes. Most people who talk about "equal opportunity" do so because they want to avoid talking about real equality and its implications.

Can you expand on what you mean but real equality?

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#4

Post by kiliantics »

I think the problem is deeper than the author suggests. Not only are certain groups of people not getting the resources they need, there is also the matter of a cultural disconnect between the people in power who control the resources, and the underserved who may deserve them.

> "We do a pretty good job at identifying the kids who are good at throwing a football or playing a trumpet,"

We do a good job of this now, but if you look back, there was a time not long ago when a black person playing the trumpet, no matter how well, was not seen as valuable. It took time for jazz and other cultural things to enter the mainstream and become valued by the group of people who are in power.

There are already plenty of "Einsteins" out there, who got access to at least enough resources to explore their passions and express their creativity. However, they still fail to be recognised when they are invisible to people in positions of power, who may be too stuck inside their cultural framework to acknowledge them.

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#5

Post by Rainymood »

djrobstep wrote: post #2

Equality of opportunity is a terrible concept. Even if we somehow solve it, it would just be shuffling people up and down the ladder of an unfair system. Instead, we should be dismantling the ladder. Real equality means equality of outcomes. Most people who talk about "equal opportunity" do so because they want to avoid talking about real equality and its implications.

>Equality of opportunity is a terrible concept.

What? So you are in favor of other people (read: rich white people with parents that have money) having more opportunities than people that were born poor due to mere chance?

>Real equality means equality of outcomes.

I completely disagree. Real equality does NOT mean equality of outcomes. People have opportunities. People have choices. People make choices and these choices have real consequences. I personally do not think it's fair to force the same outcome on some college kid that binge drinks and smokes weed all day versus some college kid that studies his bum off. Imagine what this does to incentives!?

>Most people who talk about "equal opportunity" do so because they want to avoid talking about real equality and its implications.

Would you elaborate on this? I'll be honest here that I'm not too well-versed in this topic but I think it's interesting to talk about nonetheless.

Full disclosure: I'm from the Netherlands where I feel there is quite some equal opportunity. Nearly every kid can go to a good primary school, high school, and any university if they try hard enough. There are little financial barriers as tuition is only 2.000/year. Contrast this to US universities if you do not have a scholarship, etc.

However, the fact that everyone can go to the same university doesnt mean that everyone will end up exactly at the same place. People make choices and these choices have consequences.

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#6

Post by yorwba »

djrobstep wrote: post #2

Equality of opportunity is a terrible concept. Even if we somehow solve it, it would just be shuffling people up and down the ladder of an unfair system. Instead, we should be dismantling the ladder. Real equality means equality of outcomes. Most people who talk about "equal opportunity" do so because they want to avoid talking about real equality and its implications.

How do you propose to measure whether two outcomes are equal? Not everyone wants the same things. How many soccer games are equivalent to a guitar?

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#7

Post by bsder »

kiliantics wrote: post #4

I think the problem is deeper than the author suggests. Not only are certain groups of people not getting the resources they need, there is also the matter of a cultural disconnect between the people in power who control the resources, and the underserved who may deserve them. > "We do a pretty good job at identifying the kids who are good at throwing a football or playing a trumpet," We do a good job of this now, bu…

> We do a good job of this now

Actually, we don't. The fact that the best hockey players are bunched around certain birth months shows that we create these kinds of differentials.

Re: Lost Einsteins: The Innovations We’re Missing

#8

Post by sewer_bird »

djrobstep wrote: post #2

Equality of opportunity is a terrible concept. Even if we somehow solve it, it would just be shuffling people up and down the ladder of an unfair system. Instead, we should be dismantling the ladder. Real equality means equality of outcomes. Most people who talk about "equal opportunity" do so because they want to avoid talking about real equality and its implications.

Equality of outcome's implication is a culture engaging in an authoritarian and quixotic pursuit of perfect human misery. It is hard enough to ensure a specific outcome for yourself, let alone another, and even less so to make two people come out exactly the same. Equality of opportunity at least acknowledges that culture produces winners and losers.
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