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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#151
post #43

To those saying that Apple has a fiduciary obligation to maximize profits, shouldn't by that logic Apple respect the environment at the minimum required level by law? But on the contrary, Apple highlights in a lot of their presentation how green and environmentally conscious they are, going above and beyond what the laws require: https://www.apple.com/environment/ Maybe because today being seen environmentally consci…

The issue with taxes is that they are proportional to how much you make (and for Apple, how much they sell), where as a lot of things that make you more "green" are one-offs.

If Apple's sales go up, but they're having to pay higher taxes to attract those sales, there won't necessarily be a net gain in after-tax profits.

As a contrasting example, installing solar panels is primarily a one-off cost, will probably end up saving you money in the long run, and if it drives sales, the costs of operating those panels don't increase proportionally with your sales.

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Or, alternatively, maybe Apple wants to be green because that is something the upper management actually care about on a personal level. I don't think it's likely that Tim Cook feels the same way about increasing the French government's tax revenue. Why should he? He's not French. Which, coincidentally, might be the real problem with multi-nationals - at the end of the day, corporations actually are run by people, but most people won't care about more than one or two nations in their lifetimes. Hell, many studies indicate that the average person can't be emotionally engaged with more than a hundred people, much less a hundred countries full of people.

I personally have lived in four different countries, but would say I only care about the success of two of them.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does this sort of activism really help? Yes. It reduces the company's bottom line until they either inflict bad publicity on themselves, sit and cope with it silently, or submit to the demand to pay their lawful taxes. >I think a more effective form of activism would be to flood representatives' offices with requests to change tax laws and to vote for candidates willing to do so. You're getting downvoted because we'…

I couldn’t care less about downvotes. Most of the time, they are indicative of disagreement more than anything else, and I come here for discussion, not glad-handing people for meaningless votes. Furthermore, the issue of tax law/enforcement isn’t going to be solved by whining at Apple. If you don’t like the laws that offer legal loopholes for large corporations to lessen their tax burden, your lawmakers are the ones…

Actually, given that lawmakers are in effect captured by large corporations, and Apple are the largest of all, what they think about tax law actually really matters. Tim Cook has spoken out about cash repatriation several times and the debate seems to be about where the tax is paid.

If a phone is sold in France, a corporation is making money from the French market, so given that that market has fixed infrastructure costs, shouldn’t actors in that market contribute to those costs through taxation?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#153
post #9

I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of…

> I really respect this kind of activism. I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more. I don't think it's really sustainable for the public to get interminably worked up, protesting company after company in order to keep everyone honest. In general, the best solution to corruption is simpler, more transparent systems. Corruption thrives in complexity and arcana. Deals happen in back ro…

> I'd respect activism advocating for simplified, hard to game tax codes more.

The problem is: the simpler the tax code, the easier it is to game. There's a reason why tax codes are universally huge and complex, and it's not just because of politicians giving tax favors to their donors.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#154
post #150

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

> Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits That does not automatically mean taking advantage of tax havens. Warren Buffett says Berkshire Hathway can save tax using such tax havens but he does not do it because its not the right thing to do.

Warren Buffett is Warren Buffett. He's an icon, and Berkshire Hathaway has been making consistent profits over decades.

Any enterprise which does not make consistent high profits eventually gets scooped up / controlled by "activist investor" scum which then demands profit extraction to shareholders at any level possible: tax evasion schemes, loading up the company with debt which then gets distributed to shareholders or other financial tricks that only benefits the shareholders, often at expense of the workers and society.

The only other exceptions to this rule I know are Amazon, Google and the various companies of Elon Musk - which are exceptions only because of their extremely charismatic and successful leaders.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant. Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.

$9 billion in taxes. You can't please everybody.

Are you implying that you’d be happy for a corporation to pay minimal tax, as long as the amount paid sounded like a large number?

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it funny that these activists focus on foreign companies selling in France but not paying taxes on those sales? Seems perfectly understandable to me why foreign firms behaving like Apple would be the target.

The French were primary architects of the EU. It's a bit rich to complain now that Ireland and Apple are taking advantage of its rules.

As an Irish and European person, I want you to know that your comment is misinformed and misleading. Global tax avoidance and evasion by multinationals has no relation to the formation of the EU, and the Irish government are at a gigantic economic loss (not advantage) as a result.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#157
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retroactive taxes and tax regulation? It's too bad the EU officials did not think about that loophole before it was abused.

They did think about it. The law says "No state aid for companies", and the ruling says Ireland gave state aid.

Then Ireland should be fined.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#158

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

It's near impossible to not have loopholes. To this day nobody has a proposal on how that would work. Huge companies like Apple are always going to find a way and behave like greedy sociopaths - unless people stop buying their products because of this. Hence the protests are not misplaced.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#159

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

By that same vein, citizens have a civic duty to pressure their masters to do the right thing.

Hell, I even believe citizens have a civic duty not to contribute to corporations that make the nation a worse place. You are as selfish as your most sociopathic executive. You both contribute to the same bottom line, it is only compensation that is different.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple pays every franc of tax it owes France on its sales there, no one has ever shown otherwise.

Taxes in France have been collected in Euros since the beginning of 2002.

Beginning 1999, if they were paid from a bank account...
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