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Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

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Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#21

Post by nraynaud »

downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

Nope, 1)they don’t have a fiduciary duty to anyone in Europe

2) European doctrine in accounting is not that you can do anything as long as you don’t break the rules, but that you should account in a way that reflect the truth as much as possible within the rules

3) the European doctrine of tax law is that you should tax your profit where they are made

4) your headquarter for European tax purpose is not the address in your letterhead, but where the orders tend to radiate from.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#22

Post by Thorncorona »

downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella.

Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should.

Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also multilaterally also go after others at the same time. Do you hold the parent responsible for the kid stealing? Yes. But you also hold the kid responsible for stealing.

Most of all, I want to get of this notion that public corporations have fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit. In the Supreme Court case Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, the supreme court stated that "modern corporate law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else, and many do not do so. For-profit corporations, with ownership approval, support a wide variety of charitable causes."

There is a better option, we just aren't taking it. As citizens, we should be supporting multilateral action for a more ethical capitalist economy.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#23

Post by barrkel »

pcurve wrote: post #8
sailingparrot wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does no one get mad at the governments who have the large tax loop holes? Why do you assume no one is? This has been discussed at length during the last French presidential election for example. See also: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/macron-ha... .

Found another article. https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0916/905202-donohoe-eu-tax-plan... "According to one diplomat, the strongest level of opposition came from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus. Luxembourg was said to have raised a series of practical problems about the proposal, arguing it would introduce a lot of complexity into the tax system." Go figure. Noncompetitive EU countries complaining the loudest.

France has a lower effective rate of tax than Ireland's for companies in the CAC40 - 8%. There's a lot of hypocrisy whirling around about tax. The larger a company is, the lower tax it pays in France owing to various breaks and deals. A bunch of this criticism is just another way of saying France First.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#24

Post by r3bl »

bdibs wrote: post #10
bauerd wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe people are mad at their government but more mad at Apple?

More would be accomplished by protesting the government that allows certain loopholes. Apple is a public company with an obligation to its shareholders to make money, not pay erroneous taxes.

> More would be accomplished by protesting the government that allows certain loopholes.

If such a loophole exists, and it's blatantly obvious that you're a dick for using that loophole, yes, that loophole should be fixed. But that doesn't mean you're not a dick for using it in the first place.

To put it in another perspective: If there was a loophole that allowed me to kill someone without facing any consequences, yes, that loophole should be fixed. But that doesn't mean that I'm not a dick for using it.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#25

Post by prepend »

nraynaud wrote: post #21
downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

Nope, 1)they don’t have a fiduciary duty to anyone in Europe 2) European doctrine in accounting is not that you can do anything as long as you don’t break the rules, but that you should account in a way that reflect the truth as much as possible within the rules 3) the European doctrine of tax law is that you should tax your profit where they are made 4) your headquarter for European tax purpose is not the address in…

They are a US company. Fiduciary duty is per parent company. The complaint isn’t about the French subsidiary not paying taxes, but for parent.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#26

Post by PeachPlum »

downandout wrote: post #14

These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available strategies to reduce their ta…

I'm note sure about this case, but the LuxLeaks suggest otherwise.

e.g. Apple has been ordered to pay up to €13 billion ($19 billion) in back taxes, plus interest, to Ireland [1] [2]

[1] http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/apples-headache-i...

[2] http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/appleeu-case-was-...

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#27

Post by baddox »

r3bl wrote: post #24
bdibs wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More would be accomplished by protesting the government that allows certain loopholes. Apple is a public company with an obligation to its shareholders to make money, not pay erroneous taxes.

> More would be accomplished by protesting the government that allows certain loopholes. If such a loophole exists, and it's blatantly obvious that you're a dick for using that loophole, yes, that loophole should be fixed. But that doesn't mean you're not a dick for using it in the first place. To put it in another perspective: If there was a loophole that allowed me to kill someone without facing any consequences, y…

It’s relatively easy to argue that murder is immoral even if there was a legal loophole. It’s much more difficult to argue that employing legal methods to reduce your tax burden is immoral.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#28

Post by r3bl »

baddox wrote: post #27
r3bl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More would be accomplished by protesting the government that allows certain loopholes. If such a loophole exists, and it's blatantly obvious that you're a dick for using that loophole, yes, that loophole should be fixed. But that doesn't mean you're not a dick for using it in the first place. To put it in another perspective: If there was a loophole that allowed me to kill someone without facing any consequences, y…

It’s relatively easy to argue that murder is immoral even if there was a legal loophole. It’s much more difficult to argue that employing legal methods to reduce your tax burden is immoral.

Seems as dead simple to me as to argue about murder. If you're a company that's present in a certain geographic area, you're expected to pay taxes in that area. If you don't pay taxes and you actively work on not paying taxes, you're immoral. Done.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#29

Post by pmyteh »

pcurve wrote: post #4

What's stopping EU from getting their acts together and impose corporate equivalent of Alternative Minimum Tax for companies doing business there?

The EU doesn't have general legislative competence for tax: it's reserved to the member States. To change this would (IIRC) require a new treaty, and the perceived loss of sovereignty would go down like a lead balloon with many of the governments - so that won't happen at least in the short term.

Re: Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France

#30

Post by baddox »

r3bl wrote: post #28
baddox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s relatively easy to argue that murder is immoral even if there was a legal loophole. It’s much more difficult to argue that employing legal methods to reduce your tax burden is immoral.

Seems as dead simple to me as to argue about murder. If you're a company that's present in a certain geographic area, you're expected to pay taxes in that area. If you don't pay taxes and you actively work on not paying taxes, you're immoral. Done.

Yes, but the precise amount of taxes you should pay is not some moral principle. If the current tax laws were the “correct” amount, then the government passed a tax cut, are you morally obligated to keep paying the higher amount?
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