****** No Bootcamp Applicants ****** • Hacker News Board

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#21

Post by Barrin92 » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:13 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #12

Barrin92 wrote: post #5

Not a great article. I can completely understand the rejection of bootcamp applicants. I've personally interviewed people for algorithm / math heavy positions (explicitly mentioned in the article) and bootcamp applicants just do not cut it. The genuine knowledge in a field like this cannot be conveyed to anybody over the course of a few months. Teaching someone with a stats or physics background to code is pretty doa…

> the comparison to race or gender issues in the beginning is in extremely bad taste Coding "bootcamps" have been broadly embraced by people trying to get programming (about as gender-selected a profession as there is) opened up to people from broader backgrounds. Obviously there are white dudes that come out of these programs too, but... no, it's not too much a stretch to imagine someone talk about "bootcamp applica…

I do absolutely believe that injustice exists. I've seen women with extensive academic and job backgrounds be treated like amateurs by guys. That is absolutely real and needs to be combated.

But don't mix those things up when it comes to the bootcamp issue. I would rather state it the other way around. Women can complete and do deserve to get a full education. We do not need to funnel them through rushed education systems, or be afraid to evaluate candidates candidly. It is not productive to keep bad and often expensive programs alive that market themselves to people looking for a career jump.

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#22

Post by throwaway2016a » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:13 PM UTC

It's too bad this got flagged. I think it could have good discussions.

My problem with bootcamps is that is not how the human brain works. No one can absorb 12 hours a day of information for 12 weeks. Things get lost.

We need experience and repetition. We need to shoot ourselves in the foot by accident a few times. You don't get that in a 12 weeks.

Which is fine. I've hired plenty of people with no college but years of real world experience. I've even hired someone straight out of high school before.

The difference is when you act like the 12 weeks has taught you everything you need to know.

"wisdom is knowing you know nothing"

I've been doing this 20 years and have a computer science degree and I still marvel at what I don't know.

With that said, the company that made that job post sounds like a terrible place to work. I'd probably rather work with the bootcamp grad than whoever wrote that job listing.

Although one point... and this is right up in there with things you didn't learn in bootcamp...

It's ok to write a O(n^2) loop if n is a small number. Only optimize your algorithms if it actually has performance impact. Don't optimize just for the sake of "exponential complexity is bad." Premature optimization is a terrible thing.

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#23

Post by tchaffee » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:16 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #5

Not a great article. I can completely understand the rejection of bootcamp applicants. I've personally interviewed people for algorithm / math heavy positions (explicitly mentioned in the article) and bootcamp applicants just do not cut it. The genuine knowledge in a field like this cannot be conveyed to anybody over the course of a few months. Teaching someone with a stats or physics background to code is pretty doa…

Teaching someone with a physics background to code while on the job is doable if you are willing to throw the code out. Programming is as much of a learned skill as any skill and expecting someone with no programming experience to quickly catch up to someone who has been studying and actually coding for a few years is not realistic.

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#24

Post by tchaffee » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:21 PM UTC

throwaway2016a wrote: post #22

It's too bad this got flagged. I think it could have good discussions. My problem with bootcamps is that is not how the human brain works. No one can absorb 12 hours a day of information for 12 weeks. Things get lost. We need experience and repetition. We need to shoot ourselves in the foot by accident a few times. You don't get that in a 12 weeks. Which is fine. I've hired plenty of people with no college but years…

Agreed with most of what you said, especially that this would be a good discussion. My problem with filtering based on bootcamp training is that you occasionally find someone who has been programming their whole life (as a kid) an d finally decided to get a certificate. If there is one thing I've learned about interviewing, it's to not limit your options. Instead, talk to people for a few minutes on the phone and ask your own questions instead of looking at what someone put on a piece of paper about themselves. If you don't have time for that, outsource it to a recruiting firm who will also be good at finding diamonds in the rough.

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#25

Post by JazCE » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:28 PM UTC

timthelion wrote: post #20

Unrelated to bootcamps, but one thing really jumped out at me in the article. The author's discussion of BigO time: "The post went on to detail a need for an understanding of BigO time complexity, which is completely fair. No one wants a double loop in production code. What a bulky monstrosity that would be (imagining a giant disgusting swamp monster made of 0’s and 1’s, eeek!)." "I certainly don’t want to make a mes…

> I know I suffer from the assumption that women don't know how to code.

How the hell do you come to that assumption? I don't understand at all how you can make an assumption that a person knows or doesn't know something based on race or gender.

You need to check yourself because:

> It is harder for me as a white man to talk to a woman or a minority because I am thinking about their gender or race

is not normal.

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#26

Post by tzs » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:29 PM UTC

jstanley wrote: post #3

> I spent twelve weeks, ten to twelve hours per day, of my boot camp working primarily on algorithms and data structures, and was tested on that knowledge every three weeks. So that can’t be the skill I’m missing. Wow, 3 whole months ? I wonder why they didn't want bootcamp applicants... But, in general, I agree. They should be filtering by ability rather than putting a blanket ban on people who have done a bootcamp.…

At the school I went to, Caltech, a typical computer science class was supposed to take 9 hours per week (3 hours in class, 6 hours outside of class for reading and homework).

12 weeks @ 10-12 hours/day on algorithms and data structures would be more time than one would have put into those subjects getting a CS degree from Caltech [1], so I wouldn't dismiss it based solely on it only being three months.

[1] well, it would have been if Caltech offered an undergraduate CS degree when I was there. At the time, they only had graduate degrees in CS. They had all the necessary classes available for undergraduates, but just didn't have the program. Those of us interested in CS would usually major in math or physics or EE, and simply take all the CS classes as electives.

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#27

Post by timthelion » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:32 PM UTC

JazCE wrote: post #25

timthelion wrote: post #20

Unrelated to bootcamps, but one thing really jumped out at me in the article. The author's discussion of BigO time: "The post went on to detail a need for an understanding of BigO time complexity, which is completely fair. No one wants a double loop in production code. What a bulky monstrosity that would be (imagining a giant disgusting swamp monster made of 0’s and 1’s, eeek!)." "I certainly don’t want to make a mes…

> I know I suffer from the assumption that women don't know how to code. How the hell do you come to that assumption? I don't understand at all how you can make an assumption that a person knows or doesn't know something based on race or gender. You need to check yourself because: > It is harder for me as a white man to talk to a woman or a minority because I am thinking about their gender or race is not normal.

>> It is harder for me as a white man to talk to a woman or a minority because I am thinking about their gender or race

> is not normal.

Perhaps you don't do so. But how do you know it is not normal? If you don't let me share my internal battles without attacking me, then how can you know the internal psychology of others?

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#28

Post by JazCE » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:38 PM UTC

timthelion wrote: post #27

JazCE wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know I suffer from the assumption that women don't know how to code. How the hell do you come to that assumption? I don't understand at all how you can make an assumption that a person knows or doesn't know something based on race or gender. You need to check yourself because: > It is harder for me as a white man to talk to a woman or a minority because I am thinking about their gender or race is not normal.

>> It is harder for me as a white man to talk to a woman or a minority because I am thinking about their gender or race > is not normal. Perhaps you don't do so. But how do you know it is not normal? If you don't let me share my internal battles without attacking me, then how can you know the internal psychology of others?

Because everyday millions and millions if not billions of transactions go on between humans of all genders and races, if your view was in the majority, then society would be different. You need to talk to someone about your world view and get help.

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#29

Post by ajross » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:45 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #21

ajross wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the comparison to race or gender issues in the beginning is in extremely bad taste Coding "bootcamps" have been broadly embraced by people trying to get programming (about as gender-selected a profession as there is) opened up to people from broader backgrounds. Obviously there are white dudes that come out of these programs too, but... no, it's not too much a stretch to imagine someone talk about "bootcamp applica…

I do absolutely believe that injustice exists. I've seen women with extensive academic and job backgrounds be treated like amateurs by guys. That is absolutely real and needs to be combated. But don't mix those things up when it comes to the bootcamp issue. I would rather state it the other way around. Women can complete and do deserve to get a full education. We do not need to funnel them through rushed education sy…

> Women can complete and do deserve to get a full education. We do not need to funnel them through rushed education systems

To paraphrase: "Women who didn't get a CS degree in their 20's can shove off, they're beyond hope and shouldn't try to break into a profession where they aren't qualified"

One man's (heh) objective and rational criterion is another's instrument of oppression.

All we hippies want you to do is just evaluate candidates on their own merits and not use shorthand like "no bootcamp applicants!" which can be easily construed as discriminatory. And it wouldn't hurt if you could try to see things from other people's perspective too, but that's optional.

Re: No Bootcamp Applicants

#30

Post by Barrin92 » Sat, Dec 02, 2017, 10:50 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #29

Barrin92 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do absolutely believe that injustice exists. I've seen women with extensive academic and job backgrounds be treated like amateurs by guys. That is absolutely real and needs to be combated. But don't mix those things up when it comes to the bootcamp issue. I would rather state it the other way around. Women can complete and do deserve to get a full education. We do not need to funnel them through rushed education sy…

> Women can complete and do deserve to get a full education. We do not need to funnel them through rushed education systems To paraphrase: "Women who didn't get a CS degree in their 20's can shove off, they're beyond hope and shouldn't try to break into a profession where they aren't qualified" One man's (heh) objective and rational criterion is another's instrument of oppression. All we hippies want you to do is jus…

that's not what I said at all. All I want to avoid is that women pick up bootcamp educations in the hope to get a job, fall short in interviews based on merit, and then end up stigmatized as second grade candidates. Which can easily happen if only certain demographics pick up a specific education path, that can't objectively compete with the expectations these people face in their jobs.

Don't sacrifice the quality of education just to pursue an egalitarian end, it will backfire and get you the exact opposite result of what you want.