So what's the likelihood my pre-sale in tezos ever gets returned or turned into a viable coin?
Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
61–70 of 91 posts
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
It bothers me that the top comment is a snarky dismissal from someone who doesn't have any idea what's going on. I've already learned not to expect quality discussion from HN regarding cryptocurrencies, but still, I'd like to think we can do better.
Why don’t you write that better comment? It’s not like mine has that many upvotes (11 at current count). If you explain your position in a reasonable way with evidence, it should displace mine.
I could go and point out all the things you are wrong about and why. Or you could go, and do some research before commenting. It doesn't take a long time to look at a project, their code, or whatever. Or to look at the "PDF of promises", for that matter.
It's even more absurd because Tezos was one of the few ICOs that had some actual technology, not just PR technobabble.
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Founder comp tied to release of a product that works Who decides what is a "product that works"?
Probably the foundation, which is already seemingly doing a good job at managing the money (and not just throwing it to the founders willynilly).
The foundation is doing exactly nothing. They are not spending money on development, marketing, education, outreach, nothing. They are sitting on about a billion dollars raised for the project, and twiddling their thumbs.
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
And worst of all, their product is about improving governance. Not a promising start.
In fairness, the foundation arm of the token's development appears to be operating in a reasonable and pragmatic way along their planned roadmap. It is a related company, helmed by the previous "frontpeople" for the project that has run into significant bumps and legal jeopardy. Whether or not that means that the project will ultimately release, I have no idea (nor vested interest in).
>the foundation arm of the token's development appears to be operating in a reasonable and pragmatic way along their planned roadmap
Oh, yes? What have they done?
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
Video is a great background on Tezos, why they chose a Swiss foundation in Zug, how the money is budgeted, how they chose the trustees for the foundation, the token presale, etc
my podcast is a complete front for me figuring out if i should invest in startups. :-) just had coinlist on the show as well.... they did filecoin's $200m+ ICO http://thisweekinstartups.com/andy-bromberg-coinlist/
They say if you want to master something, teach it.
Looking forward to more crypto-focused podcasts. It's always preferable to hear from more technical guests who aren't just trying to sell something.
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A public ICO blasting across the internet when there is no product, no plan, and no real engineering already done is nothing but a cash grab, and I am not at all surprised that they are embroiled in lawsuits. Is this really a property of ICOs? the behavior you describe may be very common nowadays, but from what I understand there is nothing intrinsic in this kind of funding model to be necessarily like that. Maybe…
It's not about the method (ICO), it's about the people and teams behind the ico's being 1) amateurs with no clue 2) very prepared scammers who have really nice fancy websites but no intention to at all to followup or honour the sale and 3) well meaning but totally immature ideas and teams who are doing a cash grab. This case sounds like #3 - where they have an idea, but immature company structure, poor legal structur…
You can't stop a person from buying some minimal amount (the lawsuits claim damages of 1BTC, IIRC) just to sue you later.
One hostile contributor doesn't tell you anything about the intentions of the rest.
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not fun for them, but nevertheless a very interesting lawsuit. What I am interested in is the fact they used a Swiss foundation that they don't actually control. What happens when a US judge allocates damages for certain actions? They declare personal bankruptcy? US judgements are also not always enforceable abroad, so is it imaginable the foundation gets to keep the money regardless of the outcome of any lawsuit? I…
Ethereum was the first cryptocurrency to form a foundation in Zug, and its a popular structure. Generally the code and system are open sourced, and a nonprofit foundation controls the money raised in the ICO. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/500-million-business_crypto-pig...
All those Zug-incorporated ICOs exploiting loopholes in civil law:
1. Tokenizing non-profit foundations (stiftungs), while traditional "stiftung foundation has no shares or members" [1]
2. Pretending that token allocations are unrelated to donations/contributions.
3. Using nonprofit foundations for clearly for-profit speculative activity.
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#681. ICO founders are getting a quick education in the fact that "anyone can sue anyone at any time" -- no matter what paperwork you have folks sign. 2. What are the damages if they just give the money/coins back? That's the easiest solution for these ICOs: a 100 days buy back/escrow period? 3. Another easy solution is to have these ICOs hold the proceeds in escrow and release of funds quarterly for five years to the s…
> ICO founders are getting a quick education...
It's not fun for them, but after raising a couple of hundred million dollars, I don't feel too sorry for them either.
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
what you're missing is why would people invest in an ICO then sue before the project is completely dead? just asking for regulation and trouble, while still losing your investment. i guess the attorneys will make money.
When the underlying value of the ETH/BTC has appreciated significantly, and the likely value of the Tezos token has plummeted, trying to extract core investment is reasonable. Personally I would do it quietly, with good legal backing, and as a single entity or with a small group of investors rather than a large class action - and reach an early settlement to get our own investment back without causing too much of a s…
The value of the Tezos token can't be lower than the value of the raised funds now, can it? That would be like saying a company with 100k in cash is only worth 50k. Since the foundation kept most of the raised BTC and ETH, the funds appreciated at the same rate as if they were kept by the investors. The investors have tokens that represent shares of the funds raised. Those derive their value from 1. the money raised and 2. the technology being developed (that will be useful hopefully). Therefore, it would be very strange if the token was worth less than the share of funds used to raise it, XTZ "futures" price notwithstanding.
"Futures" because they are just a pile of tokens bought by the exchange, and you can't sell your own tokens before release, so no way to get them into the exchange and no functioning market.
Re: Tezos founders push for legal bailout from Swiss foundation
#70So what exactly happened here? There was an ICO for a big new smart-contract blockchain with some cool features, and the blockchain never materialized?
It was a project that was and continues to be promising from a development and utility standpoint, but that has been marred by terrible governance, internal politics, and amateurish management
Read: it's a shit show across the board