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Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

nytimes.com

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Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#51

Post by arcticfox »

justinjlynn wrote: post #47
GCU-Empiricist wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that China has the great firewall due to it's government censorship I'm a bit shocked to see this as the top comment. The United States has distasteful problems with ubiquitous monitoring, but implying it is equivalent to China seems like failing to consider that there are qualitatively different levels of totalitarianism.

As though the invasion of privacy might be acceptable depending on who's committing the act... and how much or how often they do it and for what reasons. If it unjust, it's unjust; it doesn't matter if its China or any of the Five Eyes members doing it, it's still just as wrong.

> As though the invasion of privacy might be acceptable ... depending ... for what reasons. If it's unjust, it's unjust

I don't really agree with this. Intentions matter; the act of breaking into a house is way different if it's done to stop an in-progress assault vs. commit one.

It can obviously be argued in the actual scenario we're discussing how benevolent / evil / potentially unknowable the actors we're talking about actually are, but I don't think intention is irrelevant.

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#52

Post by wbl »

trhway wrote: post #29
astebbin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has strong legal protections against unreasonable search and seizure, as shown in the Apple vs. FBI case after the San Bernardino attack. My understanding is that China has no such privacy protections, either in principle or in practice.

>The U.S. has strong legal protections against unreasonable search and seizure i don't think these protections apply to the people outside of US. The same way whatever laws China has wouldn't apply to for example the people in US, ie. outside of China. Also it reminded about that typical arrangement when UK spies on the people inside US at the request of US government and vise versa in order to workaround those domes…

That last part doesn't happen: it's part of the intelligence agreements not to do that.

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#53

Post by EGreg »

GCU-Empiricist wrote: post #44
crappybird wrote: post #10

All android phone are definitely sending data to United States. Why is sending data to one country better than sending data to another? For US citizens, this might be irrelevant (not so much if we go by the leaks). But for everyone living anywhere else on the globe, owning a smartphone means usually owning an endpoint for one of the giant corporate data sinks which its government can easily access. I understand that…

Considering that China has the great firewall due to it's government censorship I'm a bit shocked to see this as the top comment. The United States has distasteful problems with ubiquitous monitoring, but implying it is equivalent to China seems like failing to consider that there are qualitatively different levels of totalitarianism.

Maybe internally, China and Russia have worse freedom of speech.

But what does THAT have to do with using data vaccuumed up from overseas?

Microsoft Windows takes all your passwords and the CIA or FBI can legally give them a warrant to get the data. The NSA also probably has a nice backdoor.

Why would another country be OK with this? Especially for sensitive info.

Same for other operating systems.

Are you saying that since the US has better freedom of speech for its own citizens, therefore trusting it not to do anything harmful to people in another country makes way more sense?

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#54

Post by kuschku »

wbl wrote: post #52
trhway wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The U.S. has strong legal protections against unreasonable search and seizure i don't think these protections apply to the people outside of US. The same way whatever laws China has wouldn't apply to for example the people in US, ie. outside of China. Also it reminded about that typical arrangement when UK spies on the people inside US at the request of US government and vise versa in order to workaround those domes…

That last part doesn't happen: it's part of the intelligence agreements not to do that.

The snowden leaks, 4 years ago, offer proof that this happened, and you still deny it?

Officials of the BND admitted it in a parliamentary hearing, too.

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#55

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

crappybird wrote: post #10

All android phone are definitely sending data to United States. Why is sending data to one country better than sending data to another? For US citizens, this might be irrelevant (not so much if we go by the leaks). But for everyone living anywhere else on the globe, owning a smartphone means usually owning an endpoint for one of the giant corporate data sinks which its government can easily access. I understand that…

>But I use it because of a lack of viable libre and open alternative.

In what universe is LineageOS not a viable alternative?

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#56

Post by justinjlynn »

arcticfox wrote: post #51
justinjlynn wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As though the invasion of privacy might be acceptable depending on who's committing the act... and how much or how often they do it and for what reasons. If it unjust, it's unjust; it doesn't matter if its China or any of the Five Eyes members doing it, it's still just as wrong.

> As though the invasion of privacy might be acceptable ... depending ... for what reasons. If it's unjust, it's unjust I don't really agree with this. Intentions matter; the act of breaking into a house is way different if it's done to stop an in-progress assault vs. commit one. It can obviously be argued in the actual scenario we're discussing how benevolent / evil / potentially unknowable the actors we're talking…

Justification means it is not unjust. That's the point. That's going to vary depending on the culture in which the violation is occurring - as it should.

It's not really the intention that matters, but the circumstances motivating the action initially.

Example: murder in the course of self defence as "justifiable homicide" or the warranted tapping of someone's phone under supervision of the judiciary

The issue occurs here because those traditional national lines, which happen to also include cultural lines, are themselves being violated and we have no effective incidental means of addressing or justifying the act.

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#57

Post by greeneggs »

tgragnato wrote: post #41
astebbin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. has strong legal protections against unreasonable search and seizure, as shown in the Apple vs. FBI case after the San Bernardino attack. My understanding is that China has no such privacy protections, either in principle or in practice.

Those protections apply only to US citizens: the 4th amendment doesn't apply to foreigners. US ‘authorities’ arrogated to themselves the right to siphon the data and metadata of people around the world for this exact reason. This means that based on the current applied interpretation of the norms, there are two classes of people: those who ‘deserve’ rights, and have them, and those who do not. And if you are a foreig…

No, the Fourth Amendment applies to non-citizens, even those who are in the US illegally.

> The court ruled in Almeida-Sanchez v. United States (1973) that all criminal charge-related elements of the Constitution's amendments (the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and the 14th) such as search and seizure, self-incrimination, trial by jury and due process, protect non-citizens, legally or illegally present.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/immigration/255281-yes...

(I am not an expert and would appreciate a better source or explanation.)

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#58

Post by tgragnato »

greeneggs wrote: post #57
tgragnato wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those protections apply only to US citizens: the 4th amendment doesn't apply to foreigners. US ‘authorities’ arrogated to themselves the right to siphon the data and metadata of people around the world for this exact reason. This means that based on the current applied interpretation of the norms, there are two classes of people: those who ‘deserve’ rights, and have them, and those who do not. And if you are a foreig…

No, the Fourth Amendment applies to non-citizens, even those who are in the US illegally. > The court ruled in Almeida-Sanchez v. United States (1973) that all criminal charge-related elements of the Constitution's amendments (the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and the 14th) such as search and seizure, self-incrimination, trial by jury and due process, protect non-citizens, legally or illegally present. http://thehill.c…

Thank you for the clarification.

This is still limited to people on us soil :/

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#59

Post by sli »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #55
crappybird wrote: post #10

All android phone are definitely sending data to United States. Why is sending data to one country better than sending data to another? For US citizens, this might be irrelevant (not so much if we go by the leaks). But for everyone living anywhere else on the globe, owning a smartphone means usually owning an endpoint for one of the giant corporate data sinks which its government can easily access. I understand that…

>But I use it because of a lack of viable libre and open alternative. In what universe is LineageOS not a viable alternative?

LOS does nothing for proprietary binary blobs included on phones.

Re: Drone Maker D.J.I. May Be Sending Data to China, U.S. Officials Say

#60

Post by Sir_Cmpwn »

sli wrote: post #59
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But I use it because of a lack of viable libre and open alternative. In what universe is LineageOS not a viable alternative?

LOS does nothing for proprietary binary blobs included on phones.

But it does do something for this:

>owning a smartphone means usually owning an endpoint for one of the giant corporate data sinks which its government can easily access.

At least as much as you can while carrying around a radio transmitter. Replicant is also a thing.

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