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Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

arstechnica.com

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Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#61

If that 90% figure is accurate, that's really fucking depressing. That's a beautiful looking game. I sure hope they're getting enough sales to make some decent money.

> If that 90% figure is accurate, that's really fucking depressing. I think the focus needs to shift from, "This sucks," to, "This is what it is, how can we deal with it?" Like a lot of other industries, games are going to need to evolve. Server-side data and good online connecting is a way. Platforms like Steam that take the hassle out of online buying is a way. Alternative monetizing might be a way. Tasteful sponso…

Machinarium is actually available on Steam. I guess I'd like to think that for a lot of people piracy is simply easier than the legal alternatives - this is true for a lot of people outside the US for movies, for example. If I want to watch movies at home I either have to buy them or walk 15 mins to a video store to get a scratched DVD from a lousy selection. I'm pretty staunch about not pirating but it tests my patience when with bittorrent I'd be watching anything I like in far less time.

However due to being on Steam buying this game can't get much easier and people still pirate it. I agree the focus has to change but it is still a shame, this game is beautiful. I think the amnesty sale is a great way to draw attention to the issue (and the game too).

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#62
post #47

Developer, if you read this, please offer the sale on Steam! I will gladly buy it

What about http://store.steampowered.com/app/40700/ ?

"please offer the sale on Steam!"

As in the sale price. It's still $19.99 on steam.

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#63
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't "pirate" a car. If I took your car, you'd be less one car. If I copy a game, nobody is less anything. It would be as if I had a device that could duplicate your car in 10 minutes, atom-for-atom. Clearly this would spell big trouble for the auto industry. We might even introduce laws which make this act illegal, or otherwise induce artificial scarcity so that the price of a car doesn't fall to zero, because…

"you can't "pirate" a car. If I took your car, you'd be less one car. If I copy a game, nobody is less anything." What if I "steal" your identity? Technically, you don't lose anything. I am just borrowing your information. Should this be okay too? How about a website that posts valid credit card information. Before someone actually uses the credit card, it's just numbers and letters on website. "Clearly this would sp…

"What if I "steal" your identity? Technically, you don't lose anything. I am just borrowing your information. Should this be okay too?"

Identity theft is a good example because it illustrates the way we call lots of things "theft" which aren't.

Similarly, we might say that murder is "stealing someone's life."

Anyhow, identity theft isn't theft, it's fraud. And if you pretend to be me so as to, say, extend yourself a line of credit, you're clearly doing harm to me (and my credit rating!), not to mention the counterparty you just (fraudulently) contracted with.

"There is no "artificial scarcity". The talented people that actually make software, music, and movies are scarce. This is what you are buying. If this wasn't the case, anybody could make Photoshop (not copy) in a few clicks."

You're parsing words here. Yes, the talent is scarce, but the means by which we reward that talent is breaking down because the marginal cost of media in a digital world is zero.

"Not "stealing" per se, but if you took the original developers work and put them out of business because you were copying (and distributing) it for free, isn't it almost the same thing?"

Well, personally, I distinguish between people who download something for personal use versus people who download something for the purpose of profiting off of it.

The law distinguishes between these two types of copyright infringement, too. The former is not criminal, while the latter is. That's why Grandma gets sued by the RIAA, but pirates operating on a massive scale get arrested by the FBI.

In any event, it's more about the macro trend of what would happen if such a technology existed. Right or wrong, it would fundamentally disrupt the economic system by which we produce automobiles.

But I think it's clear that duplicating my neighbor's car is not the same as breaking into his car, hot wiring it, and driving off without his permission, right?

"It's counterfeiting, which is worse than theft. With theft, you aren't going to put a television company out of business because a few tvs got stolen out of the back of a van."

Er, again, no. Counterfeiting involves fraud. It's fraudulently passing off something as genuine which is not.

That copy of Photoshop I download really is Adobe Photoshop (R), not a knockoff. I mean, it's bit-for-bit identical.

If I start selling DVDs of Photoshop from my storefront that's also not counterfeiting, but would probably be criminal copyright infringement.

If I were selling a DVD that I claimed was a legitimate, off-the-shelf copy of Photoshop with a license key and everything, but it wasn't, I suppose that would be both counterfeiting and copyright infringement. IANAL, so I don't know.

Anyhow, in conclusion, yes, if we had the ability to duplicate cars, atom-for-atom, at no cost that would be a huge problem for the auto industry. People would lose their jobs. There would be massive disruption, economic loss (at least in the near-term), and a call from auto manufacturers to ban the practice.

But it's still not theft. It's something else.

"When software is pirated (like in this article), it really can put a company out of business and destroy their entire revenue stream."

There are cases where that is true, but it's still not theft.

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#64
post #49
post #25

What seems to be missing, as usual from these piracy posts is that the 90% who pirated the game most likely wouldn't have bought it. Sure, pirating games is a bad thing. But, it doesn't hurt to have a little perspective on it. There was a post on HN a few months ago doing some analysis on this subject.

"What seems to be missing, as usual from these piracy posts is that the 90% who pirated the game most likely wouldn't have bought it." We will never know this. When I used to pirate software in my younger years, I would buy software that I needed if I couldn't find it anywhere. I suspect that the number of pirates that would never buy are a lot lower than you claim. The problem now is that piracy has muddied the wate…

Some companies have done the unthinkable and actually run some numbers... Eliminating 1,000 pirated copies tended to result in 1 additional sale. You turn 10,000 copies into 1,009.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't "pirate" a car. If I took your car, you'd be less one car. If I copy a game, nobody is less anything. It would be as if I had a device that could duplicate your car in 10 minutes, atom-for-atom. Clearly this would spell big trouble for the auto industry. We might even introduce laws which make this act illegal, or otherwise induce artificial scarcity so that the price of a car doesn't fall to zero, because…

On the other hand, I'm not stealing someone's car when I duplicate it, am I? Suddenly there's this third party (the car manufacturer or retailer) who cares a lot about what I do with me car. They'd say, "No, it's bad for you to copy other people's cars" and do what they could to stop me. It's not the copying of other people's cars that's the issue. They'd object just as much if you copied your own car multiple times…

Yes, also true, and a very good point.

This is why in the past we had three types of use: unrestricted use, fair use, and restricted (copyrighted) use. Now we only have fair use and restricted use.

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - most of the people pirate because its easy and relatively risk free. They would never think of 'pirating' a car. Who came up with the term pirating anyway? It adds a glamor that 'stealing' just doesn't have.

You can't "pirate" a car. If I took your car, you'd be less one car. If I copy a game, nobody is less anything. It would be as if I had a device that could duplicate your car in 10 minutes, atom-for-atom. Clearly this would spell big trouble for the auto industry. We might even introduce laws which make this act illegal, or otherwise induce artificial scarcity so that the price of a car doesn't fall to zero, because…

Wow thats a great analogy. What if you had a nano-replicator? I guess at that point we would have to be nearing the end of scarcity, right? Because you'd only need 2 nano-replicators to turn dirt into just about anything.

And I guess at that point people's motivations would radically shift as money was no longer required, since everyone would have the same 'means of production' (assuming the nano-replicator propogates, like everything else, and that the world isn't turned into grey sludge).

But, until then, the people who make the software do need money, or rather to make software costs money and risk and the risk is undertaken with the expectation of making a return on their investment. Not in every case, but its usually pretty easy to tell whether something is for sale or not.

Morally its kind of like the prisoner's dilemma. Its in everyone's best interests for people to buy software if they can afford it because it will lead to better software for everyone. But individually its better for pirates to not pay for the software because they get the software for free, and if enough people pay for it, they get the benefit of better software in the future. If everyone stole it, there wouldn't be any. Same for cars and whatever. It seems obviously wrong to me.

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#67
post #40
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also possible to put an online feature in the game like check the high scores or check for updates, and you'll be able to track usage while not having a DRM feature. DRM is about controlling the right to run the software, and I don't think a simple ping back would count as that.

again, that isn't my point. i'm not arguing about what is or isn't DRM. here: >"We released the game DRM-free which means it doesn’t include any anti-piracy protection, therefore the game doesn’t bother players serial codes or online authentication, but it’s also very easy to copy it," Amanita's Jakub Dvorsky explained. "Our estimate from the feedback is that only 5-15 percent of Machinarium players actually paid for…

they claim to not have any DRM, registration, pingbacks, etc.

If you read what they wrote, they made no statement at all on pingbacks. They define what they mean when they say the game is "DRM-free". And since this definition does not preclude counting up the number of IPs from which the game accesses a particular online resource in the course of normal operation, I would have to say: No, it would not be dishonest of them to do that.

Perhaps another example would help: The Fedora Project estimates the number of active users of Fedora by counting the IPs accessing their update servers. Yet I don't think this causes Fedora to contain DRM, nor do I think collecting this information is particularly dishonest.

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#68
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What seems to be missing, as usual from these piracy posts is that the 90% who pirated the game most likely wouldn't have bought it." We will never know this. When I used to pirate software in my younger years, I would buy software that I needed if I couldn't find it anywhere. I suspect that the number of pirates that would never buy are a lot lower than you claim. The problem now is that piracy has muddied the wate…

Some companies have done the unthinkable and actually run some numbers... Eliminating 1,000 pirated copies tended to result in 1 additional sale. You turn 10,000 copies into 1,009. http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350

They put out new versions of their games that fix existing pirating methods and then measure how that affects downloads and sales. How do they know what portion of the pirates are downloading the demo and then applying the crack rather than just downloaded a previous cracked version from somewhere else?

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a good move. I didn't pirate it, but I'll buy it to support them (plus it's just three quid). I only wish it were on Steam...

The game is on steam. Not sure about the sale.

Yeah, I meant the sale, it's 15 quid on Steam :/

Re: Machinarium suffers 90% piracy rate, offers $5 amnesty sale

#70
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a good move. I didn't pirate it, but I'll buy it to support them (plus it's just three quid). I only wish it were on Steam...

I think it is on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/app/40700/

It is, but no sale :/
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