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In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

nytimes.com

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Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#131

Post by sliverstorm »

jacquesm wrote: post #74
Luc wrote: post #56

I think having the right legal framework helps a lot to get a good bicycle culture. Here in Belgium, when a car hits a bicyclist, the car driver's insurance will always pay for bodily damage of the bicyclist, even if the bicyclist is at fault. Most streets where I live (in the center of Antwerp) are one-way for cars, but two-way for bicycles. And cars are limited to 30 km/h. My wife goes to work on her bicycle and ge…

Contrast that with cycling in the states where you're derided and people throw stuff at you from passing cars (beer cans seem to be a favourite projectile). In the cities it's still somewhat doable but outside it's simply impossible. No separate lanes, cars passing you within inches, risking you being clipped by a mirror.

That happens most often when you are on a road you really don't belong on. Are you familiar with Highway 9? (for those who don't know, twisty steep 2-lane mountain road, very popular with bicyclists who ride in the middle of the lane and later complain about all the cars) Though they love it to death, that road was not built for cyclists, and it's far too expensive to expand it to give the cyclists their own lane.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#132

Post by pjscott »

JohnFritzen wrote: post #108
ugh wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bikes are great, but not very practical … if the infrastructure isn’t there. You know, city planning and stuff. I think the goal is not to get people to drive 50 miles to work, the goal is to make it possible for them to live so close to work (or appropriate public transport infrastructure) that they can bike there (or use public transport). You are right, bikes wouldn’t work in every case but sometimes they can repl…

Bikes already have the infrastructure, they are called "roads".

Roads would be great if it weren't for all the cars on them. Around here, if you're not a car, the roads aren't a safe place for you to be, ever.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#133

Post by sedachv »

pragmatic wrote: post #116
harscoat wrote: post #24

21st Century, that anybody can argue against (in this thread or elsewhere) that going by bike to work is way better, healthier, more humanly fulfilling, than by car leaves me speechless. Vote for mayors pro bike roads or ask for showers at work, there is always a solution.

Where do you live? Does it reach 95 degress F with almost 100% humidity in the summer and -50 degrees F in the winter? Does it ever snow 12 inches+ at a time? Is there every freezing rain followed by inches of snow covering it? My point is, what works in California doesn't work in Fargo or Minneapolis. Even driving a diesel automobile. They gel up bad. Same with electric cars, the temperature (hot and cold) kills bat…

Minneapolis not good for bikes? Tell that to Black Label.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#134

Post by akgerber »

sliverstorm wrote: post #131
jacquesm wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contrast that with cycling in the states where you're derided and people throw stuff at you from passing cars (beer cans seem to be a favourite projectile). In the cities it's still somewhat doable but outside it's simply impossible. No separate lanes, cars passing you within inches, risking you being clipped by a mirror.

That happens most often when you are on a road you really don't belong on. Are you familiar with Highway 9? (for those who don't know, twisty steep 2-lane mountain road, very popular with bicyclists who ride in the middle of the lane and later complain about all the cars) Though they love it to death, that road was not built for cyclists, and it's far too expensive to expand it to give the cyclists their own lane.

Except those bicyclists pay taxes too, and have the exact same legal right to use the road. Riding in the "middle" of the road is a necessary technique to prevent being passed danngerously closely.

Neither of those things justifies being assaulted.

As a side note, it appears that SR-9 near Silicon Valley existed long before automobiles, and thus was not built for automobiles either. It was probably "built for" horse wagons and pedestrians, and used by bicyclists years before any motorist.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#135

Post by xinsight »

run4yourlives wrote: post #104
harscoat wrote: post #24

21st Century, that anybody can argue against (in this thread or elsewhere) that going by bike to work is way better, healthier, more humanly fulfilling, than by car leaves me speechless. Vote for mayors pro bike roads or ask for showers at work, there is always a solution.

Better is the word I'm going to hit on in your comment. I'd love to bike to work. I've even considered it actually, this in spite of the following: - I live in Vancouver. It rains 5 months of the year. - I have a 30km commute, my car is faster (By a longshot, not by a few minutes). - My car does not require I have a shower after getting to work. - My car is more adaptable: I can carry extra work home, I can stop for…

Sure, if you live 30km from where you work, you probably aren't going to ride a bike (or walk, or take transit). If you lived re: rain - sounds like rain gear is important. So are fenders.

re: showering - i've found that simply biking at a more relaxed pace avoids the whole sweat issue (besides in the morning, it's not the hottest time of the day. Biking home might be more of a problem, but then there is a shower at the end.) Plus even if you have some hills, you get in shape and will barely notice the exercise.

re: carrying extra work - what exactly are you carrying? I find i can haul a laptop and a lot of junk with a pair of panniers. Also good for picking up groceries.

Also, besides the environmental issues mentioned - i'm always amazed that drivers don't love cyclists. Every bike on the road means less traffic and one more parking space.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#136

Post by akgerber »

whatusername wrote: post #70
harscoat wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To illustrate the "humanely fulfilling": while students in Rotterdam, we had to ride our bikes back 5km from a pub... it just started raining, but while biking the sky literaly fell on us. We arrived soaking wet, drenched. Among us, this remains one of our best memories.

I've had some amazing experiences getting drenched too. But I'm not sure that it would be that amazing on my way into work. (Likely carrying a laptop).

There are plenty of high-quality waterproof bags you might carry a laptop in.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#137

Post by akgerber »

pragmatic wrote: post #116
harscoat wrote: post #24

21st Century, that anybody can argue against (in this thread or elsewhere) that going by bike to work is way better, healthier, more humanly fulfilling, than by car leaves me speechless. Vote for mayors pro bike roads or ask for showers at work, there is always a solution.

Where do you live? Does it reach 95 degress F with almost 100% humidity in the summer and -50 degrees F in the winter? Does it ever snow 12 inches+ at a time? Is there every freezing rain followed by inches of snow covering it? My point is, what works in California doesn't work in Fargo or Minneapolis. Even driving a diesel automobile. They gel up bad. Same with electric cars, the temperature (hot and cold) kills bat…

Have you ever been to Minneapolis? Minneapolis has an incredible network of bikeways and is a place where bike commuting is very popular. Most folks don't do it all winter, but it's doable: http://www.civiacycles.com/whattowear/

And personal experience as a Milwaueean on my part says biking in the cold feels awesome. You get that great warm-on-the-inside, crisp-on-the-outside feeling. The downside is that it can be sketchy on ill-designed roads.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#138

Post by run4yourlives »

BrandonM wrote: post #130
run4yourlives wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better is the word I'm going to hit on in your comment. I'd love to bike to work. I've even considered it actually, this in spite of the following: - I live in Vancouver. It rains 5 months of the year. - I have a 30km commute, my car is faster (By a longshot, not by a few minutes). - My car does not require I have a shower after getting to work. - My car is more adaptable: I can carry extra work home, I can stop for…

I upvoted you, but I found myself wondering why you have a 30km commute. You mention that you would be more humanly fulfilled if you spent more time with your kids; why are you fine with wasting an hour commuting every day? I've been paying more attention lately to perceived requirements. So often we assume that we have to continue living or working where we currently are, and that we have to build our lives around t…

why you have a 30km commute.

Because, if you understand Vancouver, you realize that if you want a house, and don't have millions, you need to live in the burbs. It's just too damn expensive here.

That said, I see it as an issue to be corrected, however that takes time. Sorry, but I'm not raising a family of 4 in a condo, based on the experience of raising a family of 3 in a condo.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#139

Post by MichaelSalib »

anamax wrote: post #126
pchristensen wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I just don't want to see some zealot telling me I can't have a car, and that I am some sort of evil person for having one." In the US, it's basically illegal to build any kind of development that doesn't require a car or two. Some exceptions, like Kentlands in MD, or Stapleton in Denver, require developers to prepare plans in advance, lobby for variances to zoning and parking requirements. It's also harder to get fi…

> It's also harder to get financing for non-standard projects. That's the market speaking.

I don't think so. A "standard" project is one that complies with zoning regulations and keeps the nutty neighbors happy (which often requires concessions far beyond zoning limits). So we're not talking about market control, we're talking about government policy. Governments set zoning rules. Not markets. Just because markets are involved, doesn't mean that a phenomena is fundamentally a product of a free market.

Re: In German Suburb, Life Goes On Without Cars (2009)

#140

Post by pchristensen »

anamax wrote: post #126
pchristensen wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I just don't want to see some zealot telling me I can't have a car, and that I am some sort of evil person for having one." In the US, it's basically illegal to build any kind of development that doesn't require a car or two. Some exceptions, like Kentlands in MD, or Stapleton in Denver, require developers to prepare plans in advance, lobby for variances to zoning and parking requirements. It's also harder to get fi…

> It's also harder to get financing for non-standard projects. That's the market speaking.

People like like Cool Town Studios (http://www.cooltownstudios.com/) are trying to make financing for non-standard financings easier. But at this point it's like trying to get money for a startup pre-YC, or even pre-VC.

It's a broken, overly conservative market dominated by huge scale investors that want to invest tens of millions at a time. Imagine if instead of dealing with VCs, you had to go straight to LPs and have them give you money for a project.

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