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Ajit Pai is right

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241–250 of 316 posts

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#241
post #193
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the argument is worse than that because it is intentionally inaccurate. The re-framing it aims to perform is misleading and distracts from the issue.

> No, the argument is worse than that because it is intentionally inaccurate. Seems on the nose to me shrug

It's inaccurate because regulations for neutrality under bases that have since been closed off by the courts were in place in the time period referenced. The current regulations were put into place to replace those regulations with ones grounded in what the courts had pointed to as the remaining available basis for net neutrality regulations.

So, it's “lets strip new regulations because in the past, things were okay with old regulations that cannot be revived.”

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#242

Ajit Pai isn't right, but here's why it doesn't even matter: he's ignoring the will of the people. Under his chairmanship the FCC has (1)intentionally made it more difficult to comment on proceedings, (2) ignored the blatant and illegal automated responses that flooded the comment system without the knowledge of the people whose names were used, (3) tried to suppress participation by faking a DDOS, (4) obstructed inv…

The major issue with this "robust competition" (which I would tend to agree with) What do you do when one entity (perhaps unfairly, or with taxpayer's dollars) already been given one heck of an upper-hand? What if they've lobbied to make it impossible for you to dig in the ground and run your "tubes" along side theirs? Has Comcast proven that they're open to "robust competition"? If I could somehow find another way t…

that's what I meant when I said we "waved bye-bye" to competition. We lost control, now Title II is the only way to get it back.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#244
The article attempts to make logical arguments from false premises.

* What makes evaluating regulations so difficult is that the benefits are usually readily apparent ... but the costs are much more difficult to quantify Why should that be so? The actual costs of implementing and conforming to a regulation are easier to measure than the benefits. The benefit of NN is harder to quantify than the cost of enforced nondiscrimination.

future innovations ... are far more difficult to calculate Predictions are hard, especially about the future. If some future innovations are difficult to predict consequent to a regulation, others are hard to predict in its absence.

* regulation always has a cost far greater than what we can see at the moment it is enacted Why should that be so? Because we can't know the future? If that's the case, it's equally true for benefits: we can't know the full benefit of a regulation, either, because not all the behaviors it forestalls have been invented yet.

It has been estimated that many EPA regulations have benefits worth 100 times their cost. Those benefits far exceed EPA's original estimates.

A regulation is a law. We hear a lot about them as "bad" because corporations have the money and time to complain about them in the press and to congress. They say the problem is costs, but when it comes to intangible goods like banking and communications, the "problem" is often the regulator's interference with the corporation's ability to exploit imperfect information. If you don't think your phone company or credit card is two steps ahead of you, read your terms of agreement sometime.

Good regulations squeeze out bad actors. Worldcom did significant damage to AT&T and their customers: by publishing fraudulent financials, it pushed AT&T to make deep cuts to services that -- by honest accounting -- were profitable and competitively priced.

A good contemporary example is airline pricing. Not long ago, the price you paid for you ticket was the price for getting from A to B. Then the airlines started charging for drinks, then food, and now bags. The real price can be $100 more than the published price. When searching for fares, there's no way to look for an "all in" price, so all airlines are forced into this deceptive model. Only regulation could successfully return us to a normal system where the price is the price.

The Internet exists because of taxpayer-sponsored research to create standards and place them in the public domain. Anyone who used MCI Mail or Compuserv or Prodigy knows what a privatized Internet would look like.

The idea that the telephone company (or cable company) should be allowed to determine, in any way, how we use their service or what we use their service for has no analog in any other industry, which is why every supporting argument is specious or disingenuous or just false.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#245
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No he isn't. Internet was fine in 2015 because the FCC was working fairly hard to prevent ISPs from shitting it up. Please read the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_Communications_Inc._v.... As a side note. I can't help but feel like this comment is insincere - if it isn't, I apologize. Understanding enough about the issue to believe Pai's attempt is a rollback indicates that a poster would have read…

Because it is a rollback "The FCC will vote on Dec. 12 whether to roll back 2015 rules that prohibit internet service providers from blocking or throttling content, or from selling “fast lanes” so major companies can get speedier access to consumers. Net neutrality activists say such rules are necessary to prevent the internet from being walled off, where access is restricted by ISPs or where certain sites have an un…

No, it isn't. Removing Title II classification does not get us back to the rules that governed the internet in 2015. The FCC issued the Open Internet Order in 2010.

Verizon sued them within a month.

In 2014, Verizon won the case, in part, but the court explicitly recognized that the ISPs represented a serious threat to the internet, as it was, and indicated the FCC had other options for regulating.

Within a month following the case, there were widespread public consultations. A month later the FCC said they would act. Shortly thereafter, the FCC went with the only option that remained: Title II classification.

The pre-Title II internet had net neutrality. We're moving into a segment of time where that is gone.

The rollback of Title II classification does not also roll back the limitations on the FCC imposed by the courts.

So no, it isn't a rollback.

Stop spreading FUD.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#246
post #169

Ajit Pai isn't right, but here's why it doesn't even matter: he's ignoring the will of the people. Under his chairmanship the FCC has (1)intentionally made it more difficult to comment on proceedings, (2) ignored the blatant and illegal automated responses that flooded the comment system without the knowledge of the people whose names were used, (3) tried to suppress participation by faking a DDOS, (4) obstructed inv…

> The one and only remedy to Net Neutrality is robust competition Are you saying NN is a bad thing that needs to be healed by competition? Because that is exactly what the article is arguing. More regulation generally burdens potential start-ups, creates barriers to market entry, and disproportionately favors large incumbents? That is even when the regulation is supposed to limit harm caused by large incumbents, such…

I'm saying in another world it would work, but there is no robust competition and there can't be. Not in Comcast Stadium.

An open patch of grass is not automatically a level playing field.

Even the mighty Google couldn't break into the game with their fiber offering. AT&T shut them down with regulatory capture.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#247
post #227
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First Title II doesn't make the government start offering Internet service, it is similar to FDA preventing companies to include poison in our food to cut cost (and you can be sure that especially the public companies would do that if they could. This happens when individual people are not liable and #1 goal of a public company is to improve earnings every quarter). I have an exercise for you right now. Let say you a…

The lack of choice in ISP marked is due to heavy govt regulation. They then added more regulation to fix the problem they created. Which is my original point: keep increasing that power...

It's not.

I don't know how old you are, but I remember it was very different ~20 years ago.

Previously Internet was classified as a telecommunication service, and was following the same regulations. Any company could easily enter the market and provide a service. Until FCC deregulated it in 2002 and 2005.

First was reclassification from telecommunication service to information service, the second was removing requirement to lease the infrastructure to others at reasonable price.

Now in order to enter the market each company will need to lay its own infrastructure, but it is even worse than that. If a company wants to run its own fiber cables (like Google Fiber was doing) they need to get incumbent ISPs to move their wires to make space. And those incumbent ISPs purposefully are delaying the process.

In Nashville Google managed to convince city to pass a legislation which would not require incumbent ISPs action, and moving existing wires could be done while lying the new ones (it's done by the same technicians that incumbent ISP would sent anyway). And of course the city was sued by incumbent ISPs.

This shows how fucked this situation really is, because even Google is giving up on their Google Fiber project, and if they can't who else can enter.

Oh and nice bonus, is that Title II requires pole sharing, once it is repealed that requirement won't apply as well. That means any new ISP entering the area will have to deal with constructing new poles or new wells which is even more expensive.

So in short if this is repealed we will be in even more fucked up situation right now.

Oh yeah, also Ajit wants to make sure that individual states won't be able to impose their rules overriding it.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#248

You need electricity to power everything you do online. I don't think anyone would support being charged different rates based on what you plug into a power outlet.

And yet here we are - https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/rate-plans/rate-plan-o...

Wow. And this:

https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/save-energy-money/help...

I really don't want utilities making value judgements for me.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#249
post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your argument is essentially that, given the way Russia enforces laws, you rather wouldn't want governments enforcing laws?

Do you think Russia enforces its laws in any special way or what? No, there are just more laws to enforce. First make everything illegal, then put anyone you don't like behind bars. Don't give your government more tools to oppress you, is what would be my advice.

> Do you think Russia enforces its laws in any special way or what?

Yes, very much so.

> No, there are just more laws to enforce. First make everything illegal, then put anyone you don't like behind bars.

Which already is telling you that it's not the rule of law. Selective enforcement is not a thing that should exist under the rule of law, and it exists to a much lesser extent in other countries.

> Don't give your government more tools to oppress you, is what would be my advice.

Well, that's fine. But the solution is not to therefore have a powerless government. Because if your government is powerless, others will take over and oppress you instead. Power doesn't care whether it is exercised by what is nominally your government or any other entity that can in fact exercise power.

The solution to oppression is to keep power distributed, and government absolutely can be a very helpful entity in keeping a healthy power balance. In this case, ISPs want to use the power they have due to their monopolistic position to oppress their customers and internet companies, which is a case where balancing that power of the ISPs with power from the government is a pretty good idea.

Also, I think you might be confusing network neutrality regulation with network content regulation, which are two very different things, if not polar opposites. If you don't have network neutrality, that creates an environment where ISPs can in fact just implement content regulation at will, be it for their own uses, for advertisers, or also as a service they can sell to the government. Network neutrality, on the other hand, is what allows one or two branches of the government to stop anyone else from doing any of that, including the other branches of the government.

Re: Ajit Pai is right

#250
I have a few issues with his reasoning.

> "The most famous example of an ISP acting badly was a company called Madison River Communication ... Vonage quickly complained to the FCC, which quickly obtained a consent decree that included a nominal fine and guarantee from Madison River Communications that they would not block such services again."

Basically his defense of the old regulatory framework in this instance is that the FCC took action. I don't have much confidence that Ajit Pai would have the FCC take action if he were faced with this same scenario.

> "Another popularly cited case is Comcast’s attempted throttling of BitTorrent in 2007 ... The FCC ordered Comcast to stop in 2008"

Once again his defense of the old framework is that the FCC will take action should this scenario recur. Chairman Pai doesn't exactly engender confidence in his willingness to take on ISPs.

> "if the furor over net neutrality has demonstrated anything, it is that the media is ready-and-willing to raise a ruckus if ISPs even attempt to do something untoward"

So the author acknowledges that what the ISPs are trying to do with net neutrality is "untoward"? Not sure why he's written this article then... But even so, what good has that furor caused? It has become clear that the ISPs are going to succeed regardless of the ruckus. So this doesn't really support the idea that the media can successfully regulate ISPs.

> "it is an acknowledgment that ISPs can and will self-regulate."

The author may be right that they can and HAVE self-regulated in the past. That does not mean they WILL self regulate in the future.

> "ISPs bear massive fixed costs, which means they are motivated to maximize the number of end users."

Not exactly. They are motivated to maximize profits. Maximizing the number of end users is certainly part of the equation, but monopolies tend to engage in other profit maximizing practices such as price discrimination (which is mentioned shortly after this in the article). However the author seems to assume that ISPs will only engage in price discrimination with regards to companies, and not consumers ("they could price discriminate and charge the Netflix competitor nothing at all!"). I find that unlikely. It is not unreasonable to think that blocking user access to some sites unless the user purchases a certain "package" will be used in service of price discrimination.

> "Ajit Pai is right to RETURN REGULATION [emphasis added] to the same light touch under which the Internet developed and broadband grew for two decades."

In my opinion this is a false equivalency. Though it may nominally be the same regulatory framework, there are differences between the regulatory environment then and now; primarily the FCC's and Chairman Pai's willingness to take on ISPs and support the principles of Net Neutrality.

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