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Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

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Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#131
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any questions, because I'm in more or less the same situation - working at an Amazon FC to pay off my programming degree because it's more stable than trying to get a job in tech right now. But... don't look too closely at the internal tools like the stow app or bintools. You'll weep.

I don't know what those are. I have been working as a packer mostly and our place has a minimum of 200 items per hour.

Ok. I've been stowing, decanting and problem solving so I've used them. Never mind then.

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#132
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you treat someone unfairly when they are not compelled to interact with you at all? Every single person who has a job with Amazon is there because they choose to be.

When the alternative is destitution, homelessness, and starvation the choice to work in a hellish occupation can hardly be called 'voluntary'. Many who find themselves in a situation where a job in one of these hellholes is an attractive proposition are in those types of desperate life circumstances.

I hadn’t realized Amazon had established a monopoly on unskilled labor positions. A real shame for society, then.

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only recommendation is to not base your moral code on market forces. Not everything the market allows is good. And maybe think a little about the people involved in the products you consume.

So we should stop shopping at Amazon so their workforce is laid off? Or we should force Amazon to raise their prices which affects low income consumers the most?

I'm not judging conclusions but the logic used to arrive at them.

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of logic lets you justify any behavior as long as there's a market involved somehow. You're trying to give free agency to people who are very likely choosing between the only job they can find and starvation. That's not a free market, it's wage slavery. Low end employers can do anything they want as long as the alternative for enough of their candidates is starvation.

Regardless of the market, there's very little actual functional value exchanged in simply following rote labor processes that don't inherently require skilled decision making or craftsmanship. The value tends to come from the design of the labor process itself; the rest is fungible. Obviously we don't want the societal cost of unhealthy labor exploitation, but it is an incredibly difficult minefield to create mandate…

It is not difficult to avoid abusing power imbalances in your favor, nor is it difficult to set fair wages and labor practices.

It is also, apparently, not difficult to devalue people in a lesser position by reasoning that market forces have moral authority.

A society based on individuals devaluing everyone below them in the hierarchy has consequences.

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#135
post #124
post #49

When an Amazon warehouse opened in my area relatively recently it seemed that many people were scrambling like crazy to try to get a job there. These seemed to be people who are poorly educated and low skilled but clearly the Amazon job represented a step up for them. I'm not saying that there aren't issues but clearly working for Amazon is still a better alternative than their other options. I personally know of som…

You'd be surprised, though. I work at an Amazon fulfillment center near Austin and I wouldn't say that the people working there seem poorly educated or skilled, at least not less so than average. They're mostly working at Amazon for the benefits and possibility of extra cash during peak. Also bear in mind that, because of what Amazon pays at the bottom tiers, many of these people also have a second job as well, so it…

I would expect the education level of the workforce to be higher in Austin than in many places; UT churns out so many students and it's a cultural center.

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of the market, there's very little actual functional value exchanged in simply following rote labor processes that don't inherently require skilled decision making or craftsmanship. The value tends to come from the design of the labor process itself; the rest is fungible. Obviously we don't want the societal cost of unhealthy labor exploitation, but it is an incredibly difficult minefield to create mandate…

It is not difficult to avoid abusing power imbalances in your favor, nor is it difficult to set fair wages and labor practices. It is also, apparently, not difficult to devalue people in a lesser position by reasoning that market forces have moral authority. A society based on individuals devaluing everyone below them in the hierarchy has consequences.

> It is not difficult to avoid abusing power imbalances in your favor,

I think that's being naively idealistic, looking at everything both currently and throughout history. The Stanford Prison Experiment has a lot to say about this, too.

> nor is it difficult to set fair wages and labor practices.

Theoretically, yes. But one issue with the USA in particular is its sheer size and variety. A fair wage in New York City and a fair wage in Podunk are not the same thing. Nor are manual labor practices equivalent across varying climates and population densities. The federal level of governance is wildly disconnected from the populace in both distance and levels of hierarchy. They deal with passing laws most of which arise from local issues that 99% of people (and even lawmakers) don't have a connection to, yet end up affecting everybody. Even at the state level, Californians and New Yorkers are still burdened by laws that tend to originate from the high density centers that might not make any sense outside there.

It's relatively easy to look at a single instance of a job and consider what's fair practice and fair pay in that specific environment, but to do so as a legally enforceable blanket policy is not.

> moral authority ... individuals devaluing everyone ...

There isn't a "devaluation" happening; there's little real value exchanged in the actual work to begin with. This has nothing to do with any notion of "moral authority", which themselves manifest in externalities added to work environments for societal benefit. But the ratio of expense between those externalities and the work itself can get overwhelming for low-end labor, hence automation and offshoring.

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#137
post #30

As a customer, Amazon is wonderful. But it needs to treat its employees better. Fix this, Jeff.

If he fixes it, the prices will rise, making Amazon less wonderful.

How many people shop at Amazon for the price and not for the convenience? Isn't convenience worth something?

I feel the same way about Uber. My family was out of town on vacation and we could have gotten the bus for $10 between the four of us but we paid over twice as much for an Uber.

I wouldn't notice if Amazon charged a few percentage more. I use it for convenience and selection.

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he fixes it, the prices will rise, making Amazon less wonderful.

I'm probably in the minority but I'd pay higher prices for better treatment of employees and better quality of product/service (which I do think Amazon needs to improve upon as well in terms of its third party seller operations). I also like going to restaurants where there's a required 20% gratuity that gets distributed to all staff and helps pay for employee benefits. I think the overall service, interactions, and…

I can't think of anything I spend money on regularly that price is the deciding factor. Quality and convenience mean a lot more to me.

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#139
post #124
post #49

When an Amazon warehouse opened in my area relatively recently it seemed that many people were scrambling like crazy to try to get a job there. These seemed to be people who are poorly educated and low skilled but clearly the Amazon job represented a step up for them. I'm not saying that there aren't issues but clearly working for Amazon is still a better alternative than their other options. I personally know of som…

You'd be surprised, though. I work at an Amazon fulfillment center near Austin and I wouldn't say that the people working there seem poorly educated or skilled, at least not less so than average. They're mostly working at Amazon for the benefits and possibility of extra cash during peak. Also bear in mind that, because of what Amazon pays at the bottom tiers, many of these people also have a second job as well, so it…

Cool.

How are working conditions: organized, chaotic or brutal?

Are there reasonable accommodations for the reality of life's un/certainties like doctors appointments, family/dependent emergencies and similar?

Are workers paid a living wage for the area?

And what's the prevalence or seasonality of CamperForce workers?

Re: Brutal life working in Amazon warehouse

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not difficult to avoid abusing power imbalances in your favor, nor is it difficult to set fair wages and labor practices. It is also, apparently, not difficult to devalue people in a lesser position by reasoning that market forces have moral authority. A society based on individuals devaluing everyone below them in the hierarchy has consequences.

> It is not difficult to avoid abusing power imbalances in your favor, I think that's being naively idealistic, looking at everything both currently and throughout history. The Stanford Prison Experiment has a lot to say about this, too. > nor is it difficult to set fair wages and labor practices. Theoretically, yes. But one issue with the USA in particular is its sheer size and variety. A fair wage in New York City…

I really have no idea what you're talking about besides disagreeing in order to disagree.
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