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What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

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Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#71
What would be role of the consciousness if it does not have a manager role? Just justifying our behaviours to the others?

By the way - people have already argued that is not conscious, but meta-conscious that makes us different: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/consciousn...

It is argued that meta-conscious may reflect upon state of the conscious and attempt to readjust works in the other parts of the brain.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#73
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you experimented with dimethyltryptamine before? I would be interested to know if a commitment to meditation could induce similar effects. What you have described sounds similar to common effects from chemicals such as N,N-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. Alternatively, could those effects be reached more easily through sensory deprivation?

> "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities Prior to attending a week-long ayahuasca retreat in Peru, a psychiatrist friend decided to use ketamine to induce a controlled state of dissociative identity in which one detached aspect of her psyche could observe the machinations of another. Curiously, after returning from Peru following a mentored DMT regimen she reported experiences…

I kitesurf, there are some tricks that I find very scary, I both want to try them and find them too scary to do.

Sometimes its easier to hand off control to my monkey brain, I'm not sure who it is inside me, but they find it easier to ignore the fear that holds human me back.

I feel like there is Mr Low-level (maybe lizard brain?) who takes over when I'm super sleepy or driving or walking and listening to podcasts. There is monkey brain who is reckless and doesn't mind what happens to the physical self. Then there is me, I'm usually in charge.

The interactions are more complex and nuanced than I can write here.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#74

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

Carl Jung has written extensively about these "parts" of the mind. His process of "individuation", which is modeled on the alchemical spagyric -- take apart and reintegrate -- process, can be used by people today in order to achieve similar results. Moreover, what you describe can also be found in western mystery schools and traditions that go back hundreds of years. Terms such as "knowledge and conversation with the…

I've not read Jung, I will, thank you.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities Prior to attending a week-long ayahuasca retreat in Peru, a psychiatrist friend decided to use ketamine to induce a controlled state of dissociative identity in which one detached aspect of her psyche could observe the machinations of another. Curiously, after returning from Peru following a mentored DMT regimen she reported experiences…

I kitesurf, there are some tricks that I find very scary, I both want to try them and find them too scary to do. Sometimes its easier to hand off control to my monkey brain, I'm not sure who it is inside me, but they find it easier to ignore the fear that holds human me back. I feel like there is Mr Low-level (maybe lizard brain?) who takes over when I'm super sleepy or driving or walking and listening to podcasts. T…

Fun. With kite-surfing you have to be two people at once, legs and upper body having co-operating minds of their own. If you get down to Oz you may want to try cloud-surfing. When you have an occluded weather front the leading edge clouds have a strong updraft, with a strong downdraft at the trailing end; effect is like a suspended horizontal wind tube. That was demonstrated to me during a private-IFR lesson where (under hood) I heard a loud whooshing sound and the vertical speed indicator shot up. Concerned, the CFI explained what was happening. Interesting! Wonder if you could cloud surf? Turned out that was an activity in Queensland, Australia where they have a spring phenomena called the 'Morning Glory' with long tubular cloud formations and lots of glider pilots. If you try it make sure you know where you want to land since the back country there is full of nasty bugs and snakes and the Gulf of Carpentaria has more than it's fair share of box jellyfish. Nice place to visit ...

Instead of lizard / monkey / the 'me' try physicalistic / vitalistic / mentalistic

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#76
post #38

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

Have you experimented with dimethyltryptamine before? I would be interested to know if a commitment to meditation could induce similar effects. What you have described sounds similar to common effects from chemicals such as N,N-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. Alternatively, could those effects be reached more easily through sensory deprivation?

I've taken high doses of LSD and definitely experienced very similar entities ... Normally there are many types of forces and drives that are each "speaking to us" constantly... we just never perceive them as personifiable or distinct -- it's just "our inner voice".

My thought is that the brain stores something analagous to a kind of a big fuzzy hierarchical hash table between sensory inputs and nervous system response (pleasure/pain). LSD/DMT allow us to traverse these hashtables in ways that are not usually possible. (DMT especially...)

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#77

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

"Prayer is merely the contemplation of the facts of life from the highest point of view" - Emerson.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#78

"I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer's words: "Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills" accompany me in all situations throughout my life." Albert Einstein

We're free to choose according to our desire but not free to change what we desire

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#79

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

I don't know why people experiment with bizarre techniques and experimental drugs. Western Europeans could just follow the Christian tradition to achieve better results more safely. People have been studying this stuff for millennia. Unfortunately we're so confused nowadays that people are gonna think of Jesus Camp and jumping around and shouting when they think of Christianity.

Because we assume we are objective observers. Which we aren't. Rom 1:18b

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#80
post #8

In philosophy of mind this view is broadly construed as 'Epiphenomenalism'. The idea being that consciousness (any mental activity that shows up for us) is like the steam coming off of a locomotive, just a by product of underlying physical events. Our thoughts have no real impact on the underlying operation of the train (brain). Though this view is certainly odd, I've always struggled to see how it isn't true. How co…

Well, one reason to believe otherwise is the simple fact that we are talking about consciousness. If consciousness were just a by-product (like steam in your example) then there would be no physical drive to talk about it.

Right. That we talk about consciousness suggests that the physical drives have feedback of the perceived experience and are able to make determinations about it which is experienced again in perception as thoughts.

I firmly believe that most if not all interpretations of the 'world' is processed and complete before it even reaches perception. How I recognize objects, how I feel at the moment, and my literal thoughts themselves. But I cannot deny that the brain activity that processes stimulus into interpretations into perceived experience is also very aware of the perceived experience.

Perhaps it's as though our brain has a functional programming style in that various stimulus is operated upon somewhat independently by different regions of the brain, but the operation of synthesis takes the previous perceived experience (that is, the output of the previous synthesis op) as part of the input along with the various outputs of newly processed stimulus to create a new synthesized state that has reliable continuity.

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