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What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

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Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#61

Post by EGreg »

ThomPete wrote: post #57
EGreg wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen to what you said... the highest order observation, "when ovserved by the person" is an illusion. This implies that there is someone ("the person") observing the highest order observation -- making it not the highest order. And to be an illusion there needs to be someone to fool in the first place. Try to get that language out of your stataments and then see if you can say ANYTHING AT ALL about consciousness! :…

Think about it this way: It's an illusion, but the illusion is real. Or think about it this way: We simulate a reality (the illusion). Or how about this. We are pattern recognizing feedback loops (illusion) Do we really need to know what consciousness is as a thing or have we perhaps by now realized that question doesn't really make sense because consciousness is not a thing. It doesn't exist somewhere. It's a concep…

Yep, I think our ideas are shaped by our language.

Same thing with the idea of "existence". It actually requires consciousness to make any sense. The two concepts are actually dual of each other!

Thought experiment: if I told you about a parallel universe which you would never be able to detect, or deduce from any phenomena in this one ... how is then saying "it exists" different from saying "it doesn't exist?"

Now imagine this world with no conscious observers. How is its existence any different from that of the hypothetical parallel universe?

In short - our very concepts of existence and consciousness are really influenced by the language we use.

Now an interesting question: can you pose ANY question about consciousness or existence that doesn't have a trivial answer, if you are CAREFUL to avoid all ambiguity in your language?

I believe that, from an atheist point of view, there IS no root you can get at. Everything is relative. When you are careful to state the subject and object of a sentence everything becomes trivially obvious.

The trouble is when you take a ternary relation (eg A should do B if A wants C to happen) and omit one of the terms. Then you get mystical wondering "How do we ground the moral imperative that A should do B?" Once you are careful to include all the input variables, morality and everything else becomes relative and the statements are merely relations. Then you get something like logical positivism.

The main question still remains - WHY are things the way they are, so consistent? And atheists may never know! :)

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#62

Post by armitron »

oceanghost wrote: post #37

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

Carl Jung has written extensively about these "parts" of the mind. His process of "individuation", which is modeled on the alchemical spagyric -- take apart and reintegrate -- process, can be used by people today in order to achieve similar results.

Moreover, what you describe can also be found in western mystery schools and traditions that go back hundreds of years. Terms such as "knowledge and conversation with the holy guardian angel", "crossing the abyss", "ego death", "ascending the Tree of Life" refer to profound, iconoclastic experiences that can forever shatter one's assumption of being a monad in space-time. Realizing that in one's mind exist various superintelligences, normally inaccessible, with their own motives and goals, can be quite distressing to say the least.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#63

Post by blueprint »

oceanghost wrote: post #37

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

That sounds pretty scary, oceanghost. It sounds like you haven't actually confirmed yet what you come to know through your practice of meditation and how you are changed by it.

There is a huge, polar gap between the process and results of the meditation taught in modern spiritual practices (such as Zen Buddhism) and what Gautama Buddha taught to his students.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#64

Post by jordanlev »

patja wrote: post #35

If you enjoy this article you might also enjoy the novel "Blindsight" by Peter Watts, which is available for free under Creative Commons and has some interesting ideas about consciousness vs. intelligence.

Came here to say the same thing! Link: http://www.rifters.com/real/Blindsight.htm

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#65

Post by ThomPete »

EGreg wrote: post #61
ThomPete wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about it this way: It's an illusion, but the illusion is real. Or think about it this way: We simulate a reality (the illusion). Or how about this. We are pattern recognizing feedback loops (illusion) Do we really need to know what consciousness is as a thing or have we perhaps by now realized that question doesn't really make sense because consciousness is not a thing. It doesn't exist somewhere. It's a concep…

Yep, I think our ideas are shaped by our language. Same thing with the idea of "existence". It actually requires consciousness to make any sense. The two concepts are actually dual of each other! Thought experiment: if I told you about a parallel universe which you would never be able to detect, or deduce from any phenomena in this one ... how is then saying "it exists" different from saying "it doesn't exist?" Now i…

The difference between the two isn't important (there is no objective difference between saying either). The fact that someone is asking the question is what's important.

And then the real question IMO becomes what are useful questions to ask, rather than what is the answer.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#66

Post by stevenh »

zerostar07 wrote: post #3
strawcomb wrote: post #2

> We suggest that our personal awareness does not create, cause or choose our beliefs, feelings or perceptions. Instead, the contents of consciousness are generated “behind the scenes” by fast, efficient, non-conscious systems in our brains. My consciousness prefers to think that it is the one in control, and any suggestion to the contrary makes my consciousness uncomfortable.

I wonder why we evolved with that feeling

Maybe separate subsystems in the mind had to evolve to follow the same leader ("I") as obediently as possible because pausing to debate with other subsystems at some critical moment instead of running meant that a predator had time to kill you. The unification of subsystems from this pressure would tighten over time, maybe to the point where a subsystem challenging the primary conscious agent would be perceived as mutiny by the other subsystems and they would try to bully it back into submission by producing anxiety. I wonder if a subsystem successfully powering through the protest and claiming the throne of "I" is what happens when people snap.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#67

Post by internetman55 »

oceanghost wrote: post #37

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

I don't know why people experiment with bizarre techniques and experimental drugs. Western Europeans could just follow the Christian tradition to achieve better results more safely. People have been studying this stuff for millennia. Unfortunately we're so confused nowadays that people are gonna think of Jesus Camp and jumping around and shouting when they think of Christianity.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#68

Post by jasonkostempski »

pmoriarty wrote: post #9

"I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer's words: "Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills" accompany me in all situations throughout my life." Albert Einstein

This is the first time I've seen a quote of a quote. You just squared my hatred for quotes.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#69

Post by wbillingsley »

A lot of this devolves to discovering that you can't remember more than you can remember, that you do indeed "feel" your mood just as we've talked about since the dawn of time, and other ways in which what we think is limited by the machinery we use to do processing.

Shockingly, I neither chose to forget to send my sibling a birthday card, nor chose to have a song from Moana lurking at the back of my head. Both of these have had strong causative influence on my subsequent conscious actions.

In other news, when I consciously try to catch a ball, I am limited by the length of my arms. This does not imply that consciousness is an emergent property of my arm bones.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#70

Post by ptr_void »

opportune wrote: post #59
ptr_void wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether neuroscience can tell what consciousness is or isn't is still an open question

Seems non-disprovable to me, and hence out of the realm of any science

Not sure about non-disprovable, subject of consciousness has been keeping philosophers busy for a while. Consciousness maybe out of real of any science indefinitely or for the moment, depending on which theory you subscribe to.
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