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What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

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Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#51

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

Ontological expansion has become something of interest to me recently. Would you like to share what else you've been practicing, apart from meditation?

Fascinating viewpoint by the way!

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#52
post #38

Through meditative and other techniques, I have learned that-- at least for myself-- that "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities, personalities, archetypal emotions, drives, and other things I am not yet able to classify. My consciousness-- the surface most of us have access to, tries to make sense of these conversations and form them into a cohesive illusion/narrative in whic…

Have you experimented with dimethyltryptamine before? I would be interested to know if a commitment to meditation could induce similar effects. What you have described sounds similar to common effects from chemicals such as N,N-DMT and 5-MeO-DMT. Alternatively, could those effects be reached more easily through sensory deprivation?

> "I" am the result of a conversation of a number of what you might call entities

Prior to attending a week-long ayahuasca retreat in Peru, a psychiatrist friend decided to use ketamine to induce a controlled state of dissociative identity in which one detached aspect of her psyche could observe the machinations of another. Curiously, after returning from Peru following a mentored DMT regimen she reported experiences similar to those reported by oceanghost. Buddhist mystic types contend that one's psychology is a function of 'atmanah' (some sort of co-minds) interacting with a individual's 'prajnatma' (one's self) [Dhammapada text]. Interesting. IF valid (BIG IF) then nobody would be what they seem.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#53
post #34

As Ramesh Balsekar once said "as long as you believe you have free will, then live your life as if it's true" (otherwise "no freewill" is just a belief and it's doing more harm then good)

Does it really ? I don't believe in free will, to a large extent, and this doesn't stop me from trying to do good. And doesn't the idea of "free will" also do harm ? Such as when people just discard mental health issues as "just matter of will" ?

> Such as when people just discard mental health issues as "just matter of will" ?

I am very much aware of mental health issues as I am healing trauma, self harm in one way or another (internalized anger and even rage). I am healing a childhood of abuse and neglect. Lots of broken people in my family, generational trauma from the wars, I believe.

You're talking about ignorance. But it's better for people to understand inter-dependence then. Telling them they have no freewill will only meet resistance. Inter-dependence, ultimately, reaches the same conclusion.. but it can help develop a sense of connection and warmth to life. In theory I can see that for some people "no freewill" implies as much and is obvious but I suspect for most, it's not obvious that "no freewill" means "we are all one".

What is generally misunderstood about mental illness is the mechanism of dissociation. Dissociation goes hand in hand with suffering, and is behind much of the news of the world everyday.

From my experience healing trauma, I'd wager most mental health issues are related to an imbalance between the left and right brain hemispheres (cf. Ian mcgilchrist "the divided brain" for a lot of research on that). The left hemisphere deals with narrow attention and the "map" of the world. When traumatized, our nervous system is overwhelmed. Somehow, it causes a shift where we live life predominantly from the left hemisphere, because mind provides an illusion of safety through a known world. Why this happens I don't know.

This is dissociation at work. This is why dissociated individuals act in what seems completely irrational ways. They are acting from a map that has become their reality.

I make this connection because since doing trauma therapy, massage and yoga... last couple years... I started to "fall" sometimes back into silence. (edit: i should mention also, that "integrating" is a key aspect of trauma therapy which incidentally means.. to be with present experience.. the direct opposite of dissociation). It's as if the body starts feeling safe enough, to say, ok... no need for right hemisphere right now. This shift is not something you control directly. The individual needs to feel safe for this to happen AND somehow I think you also need the curiosity, the desire to fall into the silence because of exhaustion... you have to be really exhausted with thinking.

> And doesn't the idea of "free will" also do harm ?

Yes but it goes hand in hand with the materialist paradigm we are in. Our entire society is based on the notion that we exist, independently, as separate entities. That "oneness" is merely a feel good thought.

And honestly i don't know what the next paradigm is. It's a very peculiar question... we are wired quite clearly in our brains to experience life as individuals. Our conceptual mind inevitably sees cause and effect (its is after all said to be "dualistic").

Thats why I think right now the next big step forsociety is to undestand trauma, understand that it is the nature of suffering, that addiction and dissociation goes hand in hand. That dissociation is actually rampant in our society and unconscious developments in technology can become a further support to dissociate which doesn't help at all..

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#55
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really ? I don't believe in free will, to a large extent, and this doesn't stop me from trying to do good. And doesn't the idea of "free will" also do harm ? Such as when people just discard mental health issues as "just matter of will" ?

> I don't believe in free will, to a large extent, and this doesn't stop me from trying to do good. So, you believe in free will.

I feel like this issue needs more clarification.

Say you have complete disbelief in free will. Without free will, you just carry out a path which is already predetermined. In other words, you just carry out your destiny. It can be the case that you are destined to 'try to do good'. You do not choose to do good, you do good because it is in your nature.

More generally:

Regardless of belief, people are confronted with choice points where they have to choose A or B. Those who believe in free will believe that the choice is determined by an internal force which they associate with 'themselves'. Those who do not believe in free will believe that the choice is determined by some external force.

People make decisions in each scenario, the debate is over the ultimate force which drives the decisions.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#56

In philosophy of mind this view is broadly construed as 'Epiphenomenalism'. The idea being that consciousness (any mental activity that shows up for us) is like the steam coming off of a locomotive, just a by product of underlying physical events. Our thoughts have no real impact on the underlying operation of the train (brain). Though this view is certainly odd, I've always struggled to see how it isn't true. How co…

>Our thoughts have no real impact on the underlying operation of the train (brain).

You mean your experiences have no real impact. Your thoughts are not necessarily qualia.

>Though this view is certainly odd, I've always struggled to see how it isn't true. How could our behavior not be entirely determined by the physical state of our brain?

Who says your consciousness isn't physical?

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#57
post #32

Interesting! I am not a nueroscientist, but I think about this sort of thing a lot (a very self referencial activity!) One thing I've come to believe is in line with (what this article presents as) the paper's thesis, and that is the following: Consciousness is best described as a highest order observation process that is non-continuous. Somewhat like a serverless or virtual instance, it can pop in and out of use as…

Listen to what you said... the highest order observation, "when ovserved by the person" is an illusion. This implies that there is someone ("the person") observing the highest order observation -- making it not the highest order. And to be an illusion there needs to be someone to fool in the first place. Try to get that language out of your stataments and then see if you can say ANYTHING AT ALL about consciousness! :…

Think about it this way: It's an illusion, but the illusion is real.

Or think about it this way: We simulate a reality (the illusion).

Or how about this. We are pattern recognizing feedback loops (illusion)

Do we really need to know what consciousness is as a thing or have we perhaps by now realized that question doesn't really make sense because consciousness is not a thing. It doesn't exist somewhere. It's a concept we use to describe phenomena but which through language can always only be a reduction of reality.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#58
post #8

In philosophy of mind this view is broadly construed as 'Epiphenomenalism'. The idea being that consciousness (any mental activity that shows up for us) is like the steam coming off of a locomotive, just a by product of underlying physical events. Our thoughts have no real impact on the underlying operation of the train (brain). Though this view is certainly odd, I've always struggled to see how it isn't true. How co…

Well, one reason to believe otherwise is the simple fact that we are talking about consciousness. If consciousness were just a by-product (like steam in your example) then there would be no physical drive to talk about it.

That assumes that consciousness is a thing we correctly pointing to. As far as we know it might as well be a completely ignorant idea.

Some questions can't be answered through language they can only be conceptualized through language and that's a very important distinction IMO.

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny how on one hand consciousness may be the only thing you can be sure exists (Cogito ergo sum), but on the other hand, results from neuroscience suggest it's basically an illusion and is not persistent.

Whether neuroscience can tell what consciousness is or isn't is still an open question

Seems non-disprovable to me, and hence out of the realm of any science

Re: What if consciousness is not what drives the human mind?

#60
post #8

In philosophy of mind this view is broadly construed as 'Epiphenomenalism'. The idea being that consciousness (any mental activity that shows up for us) is like the steam coming off of a locomotive, just a by product of underlying physical events. Our thoughts have no real impact on the underlying operation of the train (brain). Though this view is certainly odd, I've always struggled to see how it isn't true. How co…

Well, one reason to believe otherwise is the simple fact that we are talking about consciousness. If consciousness were just a by-product (like steam in your example) then there would be no physical drive to talk about it.

That's very arbitrary. We talk about everything we notice, external or introspective. There's no infinite regression, either. Consciousness notices itself. That's kind of one of its hallmarks.
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