Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who exactly do you think the "informants" are? So say I'm a dirt poor farmer in Afghanistan. I spent most of my time being terrorized by the Taliban (say for example, they burned my sister alive after they found out I taught her how to read). Now the NATO forces arrive, kick those assholes out, along the way they shell my barn and accidentally kill my brother. I'm pissed off, but on the balance, I know the NATO force…
What he still has a family? - I say this lightly because it clearly is fiction. Firstly, the Taliban must be very busy if all they do is go around burning little children who learn how to read. Also, this breadwinner must be quite relieved that his son was killed in a nicer way. Seeing as the Taliban took the trouble to burn his daughter just for reading, I suppose they would consider the father to be their friend, b…
Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
171–180 of 211 posts
Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
elbanco I have no idea why, when I read your comment, you're at -2. I don't read a lot of HN lately, but this is the most irrational thread I have seen on HN for a long, long time. Quite frankly it makes me sad. I'm not going to wave my hands around and say we're turning into reddit. I don't see the need.
I think what I'm most troubled by is two things, 1) The level of false amnesia regarding all things Taliban, Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. There are some very not nice people there that would kill rape and murder every single person on the planet until they could convert the survivors to their particular brand of Islam. This is not a fantasy, this is their stated intent and has been demonstrated throughout the world for…
Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
How many people would Assange have to put in harm's way before it stopped being ok?
No the logic is, let's get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan first, and let's stop killing innocents/civilians in Afghanistan, and then, maybe, we'll worry whether it's "right" or "wrong" to publish these pieces of paper.
Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#174Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think what I'm most troubled by is two things, 1) The level of false amnesia regarding all things Taliban, Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. There are some very not nice people there that would kill rape and murder every single person on the planet until they could convert the survivors to their particular brand of Islam. This is not a fantasy, this is their stated intent and has been demonstrated throughout the world for…
At what point do the unnecessary deaths caused by war outweigh the unnecessary deaths caused by terrorism?
Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When you know the identity of your informants was compromised, you should remove them from the field immediately. I sure hope you have enough space for the huddled masses of Afghanistan in your house since an awful lot of them are "informants".
If you can't protect you informants, don't have them.
Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#176Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#177What I think everybody has lost site of is that Afghanistan, pre 9-11, was a country that facilitated an environment that allowed people who would normally be local village thugs to turn into James Bond villains that rammed airliners into buildings on the other side of the planet killing thousands of civilians drinking their morning lattes. The Afghan war was most certainly not a war of colonial aggression or some bu…
Plenty of people have floated and tested ideas other than occupying the country as methods of preventing "more buildings from being knocked down". Indeed, nearly all terrorist plots that have been prevented have used these methods: investigative policing. For someone seemingly so versed in the issue, I'm surprised of two things: 1- That you're apparently unaware that there are two primary schools of thought re: anti-…
2. I'm certainly not unaware of that. All possible effort should be made to not kill innocents as it does indeed feed the terror machine. I would certainly like to see persons responsible for indiscriminate civilian deaths dealt with. But unless you are aware of a method, technological or otherwise, of identifying bad civilians from good civilians in a population a priori to bad civilians doing bad things, and of removing those people from the face of the earth without endangering the room full of people they shield themselves with, sometimes innocents will simply be caught in the cross-fire.
It's sad, it's unfortunate, but it happens. Apparently your decades of counter-terror experience says something different, please share an actual operational plan from intelligence gathering to final capture/kill of a notional bad-guy if that's not the case.
Outside of your naive and fantasy filled ruminations on how to conduct counter-terror operations, you do seem to be entirely ignorant of the reasons why we are conducting operations in Afghanistan in the first place and it had everything to do with establishing a Caliphate.
"Like the late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, of Iran, Osama bin Laden made his anti-Western passion and plans clear in print years before gaining prominence through a frontal assault against America and its friends. The Encyclopedia of the Afghan Jihad, a multivolume guide to paramilitary and terrorist activity, written by his followers in the late 1980s and early 1990s, signaled bin Laden's intention to wage an anti-Western campaign far beyond Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The encyclopedia was probably compiled and published in Peshawar, Pakistan, in late 1992. Because it doesn't provide a date or an exact place of printing (an intentional wartime evasiveness pervades the writing), one must make guesses about its provenance based on the text and on conversations with Pakistanis, Afghans, and Arabs. The encyclopedia, "one of the Sources of Energy for the faithful," was designed to transfer the knowledge and spirit gained from the "first brick of Islamic justice"—the successful war against Soviet communism—to a larger, more important campaign against the West, which bin Laden's statements have referred to only as kufr ("unbelief"), a classical-Islamic way of denoting geography by faith. The next jihad against America and its Muslim allies would, the authors of the encyclopedia prayed, lead to "the establishment of a castle of the Muslims, a [new] Caliphate"—a reference to the ruling politico-religious office of Islam's "golden age." For many fundamentalists, if not for the common man, the caliphate remains, at least sentimentally, the ideal geopolitical expression of Muslim universalism—an empire free of Westernized nation-states, where the shari'a, the holy law, reigns supreme, thus guaranteeing the union of Church and State and the brotherhood and strength of the faithful.
The aim of the encyclopedia and many smaller paramilitary and terrorist manuals that have appeared since 1992 is to democratize terrorism, to give to any true believer a portable guide to waging holy war worldwide. The encyclopedia has been found in print or on CD-ROM wherever al Qaeda has sent its cadres. Bin Laden and his followers also sought to accomplish philosophically what the Shi'ite Ayatollah Khomeini aspired to but never achieved: taking Islamic radicalism mainstream by forcing and dominating the discussion of holy war among the various strains of Sunni fundamentalism, which has become a significant force in every Middle Eastern country. Though unquestionably the most influential Muslim of modern times, Khomeini could never transcend the seventh-century division of Islamic society into those who recognize the legitimacy of the caliphal succession to the Prophet Muhammad (the Sunnis) and "the party of Ali" (the Shi'a), who believe that only Muhammad's son-in-law and his descendants can rightfully rule the Islamic world."
http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/2002/01/gerecht....
And lastly, it is the definition of naive to believe that "we're not getting any material benefit" from the war. You may not be, but many corporations have massive financial benefits and most politicians have re-election benefits (both pro-war and anti-war politicians, though primarily the pro-war variety).
It's just money spinning around the drain. What I mean by not gaining material benefit is that it's not like NATO troops are returning home with chests full of loot like returning Roman armies on the frontiers. There's no new input of valuables into the economies of the nations participating in Afghan counter-terror operations.
Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think what I'm most troubled by is two things, 1) The level of false amnesia regarding all things Taliban, Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. There are some very not nice people there that would kill rape and murder every single person on the planet until they could convert the survivors to their particular brand of Islam. This is not a fantasy, this is their stated intent and has been demonstrated throughout the world for…
At what point do the unnecessary deaths caused by war outweigh the unnecessary deaths caused by terrorism?
Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just playing Devil's advocate here[1], but consider this scenario Most Taliban commanders and fighters are part and parcel of the population, as is typical in any foreign invaders vs home grown guerrillas war - As an Afghan village elder said in Kandahar - "the people you call Taliban are my sister's son and his friends, they are our people" - and the Taliban have informants in the Afghan National Army and other depa…
Without going into a point-by-point agreement disagreement. I actually largely agree with your characterization of the situation. Which is the most powerful argument for why NATO must remain in Afghanistan for the time being. Until the situation is improved to the point that we can be reasonably sure that the festering cancer of the Taliban is no longer a threat to you and me, we have to try and improve the condition…
Realistically, the Taliban is only a threat to you and me if the US state apparatus allows it to be (for strategic reasons, such as justifying the invasion of a country like Iraq, or economic reasons, such as feeding the hungry mouths of defense contractors).
Even the most recent bombing attempt seems to have been conducted with the approval of the state apparatus (Wikipedia: "State Department had wanted to revoke Abdulmutallab's visa, but U.S. intelligence officials requested that his visa not be revoked": http://bit.ly/amFHQn).
Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
At what point do the unnecessary deaths caused by war outweigh the unnecessary deaths caused by terrorism?
So your counter response is that we should all have just sat back and been killed like sheep to the slaughter? I mean that as a serious question, because there's lots of "let's pull out!" going on here but no alternative courses of action being put forth that don't involve me becoming a terror target.
The United States (along with other European countries including Russia and other non Islamic countries like India) is a terror target irrespective of what it does in Afghanistan. If you are an American, you are (in the abstract) a terror target already and have been for a long long time. The odds of you specifically dying in a terrorist attack are (and always were) very slim.
No amount of destruction in Afghanistan will change that. Americans will die in future terror attacks whether you pull out of Afghanistan or not.
And no you don't have to have a "solution" before you say "This is not working". By that logic civilians could never decide to end a war. That is hardly democracy. There was no "solution" to Vietnam when America quit. That happened because American civilians made a decision they didn't want to keep paying in blood and treasure to "win" a faraway quagmire of a war.
"Pull out" is just as valid a suggestion as "stay on". You'd still be fighting in Vietnam if "stay and fight till victory" were the only choice to end a foolish war. A suggestion has to be opposed with reason, not rhetoric like "But ... But .. that will make us terror targets" and "Our generals surely know what they are doing (if American history is any indication this is a very dubious claim)" or "You aren't a general How would you know?"
The 9/11 attackers were Saudi but you guys went to war with Iraq. The present day epicentre of Islamic terror is Pakistan/Saudi Arabia but you guys are fighting in Afghanistan, all the while funding the Pakistanis who fund the Taliban. Wtf? A war in which you fund the people trying to kill your soldiers, and your ally's intelligence services train and provide safe havens for your enemies is not winnable.
The next Islamic terrorist attack could come from Somalia or Yemen or the United Kingdom or the Balkans or Saudi Arabia, or Iran or Indonesia or Turkey or Egypt.
Are you going to war with all of them (and stay a few decades in every ungoverned badland on the planet)? If not why do you want to stay in Afghanistan? What is the plan for "victory"? And how is "victory" defined anyway?
I (personally) want America to win (I am in general very pro American and I take some flak for it locally) but "stay on till the Taliban is no threat" is an impossible goal for victory. You don't have enough money (trillions more), or the time it would take (many decades) or the fortitude to absorb the required casualties (tens ofthousands ), to have even a low chance of success.