So, Chicken Scheme[0] with a borrow checker? [0] https://www.call-cc.org
But without dynamic typing and Cheney on the MTA and with a completely different way of managing memory.
And not a scheme.
Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
61–70 of 112 posts
Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#62I really want to like Carp but I somehow feel that the Rusty memory model does not fit the Lisp philosophy... all the borrowing story comes from a basis mutability. I wish for something more Clojurish based on immutable data. Then one can exploit the power of inferred type linearity/affinity to transparently build safe "transients" and other cool stuff. Maybe some day I should write such Lisp myself on top of my C++…
One of the good LISP's back in the day was PreScheme that let it finally be a C alternative efficiency-wise. It was also used in first, verified LISP. Such a style might also be good for bootstrapping or just making more flexible ways to code C. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PreScheme Looking at PreScheme, Carp doing a C alternative safe without a GC is a nice evolution of these LISP's. Next cool possibility: use a…
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Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#63I really want to like Carp but I somehow feel that the Rusty memory model does not fit the Lisp philosophy... all the borrowing story comes from a basis mutability. I wish for something more Clojurish based on immutable data. Then one can exploit the power of inferred type linearity/affinity to transparently build safe "transients" and other cool stuff. Maybe some day I should write such Lisp myself on top of my C++…
One of the good LISP's back in the day was PreScheme that let it finally be a C alternative efficiency-wise. It was also used in first, verified LISP. Such a style might also be good for bootstrapping or just making more flexible ways to code C. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PreScheme Looking at PreScheme, Carp doing a C alternative safe without a GC is a nice evolution of these LISP's. Next cool possibility: use a…
> Next cool possibility: use a Rust-like LISP
Why do you want a Rust with Lisp syntax? I don't see the benefits of such a "Lisp" if you take the core benefits of metaprogramming at runtime away which depends on the equality of code and data.
Safe software can also be written in other languages than Rust. Ada is still industry standard of safe programming today. Even Lisp can be used to write safe software since Lisp's memory management takes care of possible pointer problems.
Rust shines in the field where Mozilla developed it for -- safe Internet browsers. However, safe Internet browsers could also be written in Ada and Lisp. The Lisp version would just not be as performant as Ada's and Rust's.
Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#64I really want to like Carp but I somehow feel that the Rusty memory model does not fit the Lisp philosophy... all the borrowing story comes from a basis mutability. I wish for something more Clojurish based on immutable data. Then one can exploit the power of inferred type linearity/affinity to transparently build safe "transients" and other cool stuff. Maybe some day I should write such Lisp myself on top of my C++…
> does not fit the Lisp philosophy... all the borrowing story comes from a basis mutability I found this to be a confusing statement until I realized you were talking about Clojure. Common Lisp condones mutation, and a borrowing model could be helpful for optimizing memory allocations.
You are right that a lot of Lisps consider themselves more procedural than functional and I was extrapolating Clojure there. (In my defense, the Scheme community is also very functional and immutable oriented)
Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#65> Carp compiles to C...It also likely doesn’t matter much, because chances are your machine has a C compiler. Whether or not I can compile the code is only one of the many concerns to consider when picking between C and LLVM.
That’s quite true, but from the users perspective, it mostly doesn’t matter, at least in my mind. For people interested in the internals—which is an increasing amount of the user base—, and the people working on the compiler, it most definitely is a concern.
Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#66Since this is about a pre-alpha language, it would be helpful for future web searchers to have a date in the title.
That’s probably true. I honestly didn’t expect this little blog post to gain that much attention, honestly.
Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#67I really want to like Carp but I somehow feel that the Rusty memory model does not fit the Lisp philosophy... all the borrowing story comes from a basis mutability. I wish for something more Clojurish based on immutable data. Then one can exploit the power of inferred type linearity/affinity to transparently build safe "transients" and other cool stuff. Maybe some day I should write such Lisp myself on top of my C++…
That’s one of its strengths though . A lisp with type inference and performance is quite rare. More lisps should be less lispy .
> A lisp with type inference and performance is quite rare.
That's quite a befuddling thing to say, in every aspect.
The popular SBCL is likely the fastest general Lisp out there (gets close to or equal to C when declared properly), and type inference is certainly part of those speed wins.
Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#68The borrow checker is the reason to use Rust, in spite of its annoyances (clunky syntax, limited type inference, non-interactive programming, long compilation times, etc.), so it's always nice to see someone trying to provide the upsides of Rust without the downsides. That being said, your website is disappointingly terse regarding how Carp recovers the advantages of Rust in the context of a Lisp derivative. What mak…
While I do agree with the fact that one of the best features of Rust is the communication, I’d tend to find the comparison of the two a little unfair. Carp is very young and in an entirely different position than Rust.
That being said, this is why I want to start to write more blog posts about Carp. I had to wade through the deep waters alone, with occasional help in the Gitter channel. Now I want to share that experience. As such, the blog post goes in a different direction than, say, Matsakis’.
In a perfect world someone who cares about communication and is good at it will be in the core team of the language at one point. In the meantime, we’ll have to make-do with me.
Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#69Looks really good. Might give it a shot. What's the concurrency story?
None at the moment, to my knowledge. High on the list of priorities, but it’s not far enough along, I fear.
Re: Carp, a compiled Lisp with type inference and a borrow checker
#70I wonder why nobody said one word about Shen Language[1].