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Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

washingtonpost.com

161–170 of 211 posts

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#161

I am struck by four things. 1) Wikileaks is really pissing people off. I don't mean the nicey, lets-go-protest-down-at-the-student-union kind of protest. I mean people who are not normally angry with anybody else in the world talking about throwing him in jail and/or killing him. Devil or Angel, that's a whole heap of pissing off he's accomplished. 2) Assange has more power than many 3-star generals, yet he's just so…

I see that your opinion has changed quite drastically from only a few days ago when your comment was a resounding cry against such vast secrecy as exposed by Washington Post, or was it WSJ. I am growing by the day to learn that the united state has become or maybe always was a Phireha (I can't quite find the spelling of the word). The opinion formers there are so poisonous and it seems quite effective. The atmosphere…

My position on both issues is consistent. You do not have to support some crazy intelligence apparatus to realize that Wikileaks is whacked. It's not an either-or situation. The intelligence and secrecy thing is extremely bad and something must be done immediately. AND Wikileaks is an awful thing and the operators probably should be arrested and imprisoned. Both of these things can be true at the same time.

Pakistan has been playing the double game all along. It's not new information.

But see, your entire discussion is about the political content of the leaks. My discussion is that the system is broken and lets go fix it. Your discussion is all about this particular thing that makes you so angry.

It's like Assange has managed to troll the world's media, interjecting a whole load of noise. Trolls are great because they drop content that is so emotionally laden to the room that the room is unable to process it. If Assange had leaked information just as important but not as emotionally-laden, say something about nuclear secrets or something, nobody would care. But now we have to go off on a multi-month conversation about the Afghan war, which is very important, no doubt, but has jack-shit to do with the process of having some website dump secret docs. You are all being terribly distracted here.

Let's say he manages to end the war without killing more people (about as likely as him becoming Santa Claus, but I know this is the feeling). Next year we have the same systemic problem of too many agencies. And we'll still have Assange.

Hell, it's almost like he's feeding off the problem, not solving it.

You have to ask yourself the serious question -- am I supporting Assange because I am angry at the intelligence agencies, secrets, and Afghan war? Or am I supporting him because of what he is doing, his business model? It's the guys who do things you'd like to do, with goals that you share, that you should be looking the most circumspectly at. Always suspect people and news reports that agree with your worldview.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#162
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you call those prosecuting the US/NATO side of the conflict in Afghanistan "murderers", you run the risk of implicitly taking the side of US/NATO's adversaries, who in this case are the Taliban. Nice strawman. Calling the folks who recklessly fire on civilians murderers may be a bit exaggerated. Human error happens and human error when the human is on the trigger of a 30 mm cannon is usually disastrous, but au…

I wonder which clean, efficient war we should compare it to.

I believe it was not fought yet. Nevertheless, you (I am not American, or better, I am European, born in South-America) owe everyone that gets killed in the wars you fight that, at the very least, their sacrifice is not in vain. And you owe that to both sides.

The fact the other side won't honor this ideals is what separates you from them.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#163
post #66
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you call those prosecuting the US/NATO side of the conflict in Afghanistan "murderers", you run the risk of implicitly taking the side of US/NATO's adversaries, who in this case are the Taliban. Nice strawman. Calling the folks who recklessly fire on civilians murderers may be a bit exaggerated. Human error happens and human error when the human is on the trigger of a 30 mm cannon is usually disastrous, but au…

People who recklessly fire on civilians are murderers and should be tried as such. Commanders who issue orders that make ignore forseeable events like that should be held criminally responsible. Corruption should be eliminated. Corrupt local replacements for the Taliban should be thwarted. Incompetancy is bad and should be rectified. Now, all those things being true, help me understand how it can be OK to arm the Tal…

And, BTW, do you have any hope recklessness, corruption and incompetency would be eliminated without being first exposed for what they are?

There is need for secrecy in war. But when this secrecy becomes a shield to protect those who should not be fighting (or commanding) it, for they are reckless, corrupt and incompetent, it's time to end it.

I am not for the indiscriminate release of information, but there has to be a middle-ground and organizations like Wikileaks provide it.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#164
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you know the identity of your informants was compromised, you should remove them from the field immediately. If you don't, it's at least 50% your fault when they get killed. Keep in mind the US government knew what documents would be leaked before the Taleban could get access to them.

> When you know the identity of your informants was compromised, you should remove them from the field immediately. I sure hope you have enough space for the huddled masses of Afghanistan in your house since an awful lot of them are "informants".

If you can't protect you informants, don't have them.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1) Wikileaks is really pissing people off This is because what they're doing is effective. Ineffective things don't piss people off and trigger military disinfo campaigns. The author of the WPO blog article is an AEI member, a player in the neocon agenda: not some random pundit. >2) Assange has more power than many 3-star generals I'm fine with that. Assange isn't killing people. 3-star generals are. >3) Anarchy is…

> "Assange isn't killing people. 3-star generals are." For me this single point is one of the most powerful and clarifying.

The Taleban was killing people before the 3-star generals started their part. Still, when you are in command of a quite impressive military force capable to deal death and destruction in unheard-of scale, you should, at the very least, wield this power sparingly.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#166
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Who is really culpable for the release of these names?" The person who released the information.

It's not that cut and dry though, the white house had an opportunity to minimize the damage and did nothing about it.

Even if they didn't want to cooperate with Wikileaks by singling out names (that would give WL the extra bit of info on the importance of each name), they knew for sure who should be removed from the field. If their handlers did nothing to protect their field agents, it's not completely WL's fault they get killed.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#167
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Here's what I'm wondering: when did it become fashionable to stick up for the Taliban? When there are two groups of killers involved in a conflict recognizing the killing of one group doesn't mean one is excusing the killing of the other group. If you are familiar with the history of the Taliban you are likely aware of the role the US played in their rise to power ( http://nyti.ms/ddOTcu ). The Taliban would likely…

I don't understand why it matters that the US helped bring the Taliban to power. Help me understand why our culpability in the rise of the Taliban doesn't make us more obligated to eradicate them. Please understand, I think that this article we're all commenting on is all the way at the crazytown other end of the spectrum on this issue. The notion that the US should be allowed to kidnap people in friendly countries a…

> I don't understand why it matters that the US helped bring the Taliban to power.

For one, I think they would be better off had the Soviet Union succeeded invading it. They would have some industry, mining operation, separation between religion and state and so on. It's not like the Taleban ever were "freedom fighters".

The Soviet Union would get rid of the Taleban for free.

It's, in fact, the kind of poor judgment that minimized the threat the Taleban presented and made it worth to defeat the soviets by any means possible that worries me. Had the Taleban been properly groomed and supported (and "westernized") after driving the Soviets out, the world would be a far better place now.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see that your opinion has changed quite drastically from only a few days ago when your comment was a resounding cry against such vast secrecy as exposed by Washington Post, or was it WSJ. I am growing by the day to learn that the united state has become or maybe always was a Phireha (I can't quite find the spelling of the word). The opinion formers there are so poisonous and it seems quite effective. The atmosphere…

My position on both issues is consistent. You do not have to support some crazy intelligence apparatus to realize that Wikileaks is whacked. It's not an either-or situation. The intelligence and secrecy thing is extremely bad and something must be done immediately. AND Wikileaks is an awful thing and the operators probably should be arrested and imprisoned. Both of these things can be true at the same time. Pakistan…

In that thread you quoted someone who basically said that secrecy is the antithesis of democracy, while now you are completely against an organisation which makes public information which shouldn't really be secret.

"Always suspect people and news reports that agree with your worldview."

Yeh sure, but I am willing, unlike it seems you, to give him and this very new company the benefit of good will.

I have not seen the "collateral murder" video, so maybe I should not comment on that, but it strikes me as strange that people would focus on the tile and use that against the entire company, what it does, and all else, never mind that it was a revelation of some sort and I suspect that the media has a great role to play in such strange behaviour.

Again we see the same happening with the Afghan files. Could, possibly, it may be, arguably. On these very thin foundations an argument so powerful is made. No, it doesn't matter that the government was careless, no its him, him..

I think it is both. I am not in any way angry at the intelligence agencies, nor secrets, nor at the Afghan war. What I do dislike and would like is a world which is not guided by selfish interests, big corporations with too much power, big individuals with too much power, I suppose it very shorty can be summed up as things which are not right or just by the standard of the reasonable man.

For example, I would very much like the minutes of the meetings between Google and Verizon to be leaked in their entirety because they have no right to conduct a conversation of such grave importance in secret and the fact that they have chosen to do so makes me highly suspicious and makes me think that they are conspiring against the public to their own benefit.

A while back here in the UK there was a super injunction whereby no one could report about a specific statement in Parliament! Wkileaks leaked the statement. The injunction was lifted I would think despite the leak due to much pressure, but in another situations it might have not been lifted while it was right that it should be.

These are only examples which indicate quite well the combination between the two things you mentioned. I believe that the person who was able to build such a formidable machine is a reasonable man in the same way that I would consider myself a reasonable man. Thus I would not think - and the fact that he has not published some info in the Afghan files - that he would expose a secret that a reasonable man would think not right to expose.

Reasonable people can of course disagree. An example of anarchism might be the making public of Google's algorithm. Would a reasonable person think this to be desirable? Well Google thrives on secrecy. It is because of this secrecy that they have the liberty to state things like "oh we are impressed that our search results are not getting worse". It is because of this secrecy that innovation in the area of search is stifled. They had for example the decency to tell us only recently just how much it takes from the adverts places on our sites. Why should such a thing be secret? You might say well that's the free market, but is there really a choice here?

As for the algorithm, the argument often is that people would play the system, so lets just keep it as it is and fatten our pockets rather than try and make things better.

People are playing the system anyway. But that argument is like saying lets not tell people what the law is because they then would be able to subvert it. No one would suggest not telling people what the law is. That is a Kafkaesque world and the way google operates is very much Kafkesque.

So if people play the system, is google just going to sit back and relax and have a cup of tea, or is it actually going to fight back and keep order? Might it perhaps be that this secrecy suits them well, suits their pockets, and screws everyone else?

That is just an example. Perhaps of no relevance as I said he does not leak everything. He seems to be a reasonable man. Everything that has happened until now seems very reasonable to me. Yes perhaps he did made some mistakes, but these are 90,000 documents! and it is not all entirely his fault, a one man, as opposed to the entire machinery of state who has the decency to refuse considering whether the life of people might be put in danger.

I do not however blindly favour it. If so it happens that he does something which would be considered unreasonable, then there might be an argument, but he hasn't.

Now, what problem is he exactly feeding? The government is keeping secrets from us for the benefit of the politicians and the wealthy, the wealthy are keeping secrets from us and conspiring against the public to further increase their wealth. He is trying to expose things which have no reason to be secret. What problem is he exactly feeding? That perhaps there will be an arm's race, that we will see evolution in a fast motion in regards to keeping secrets? That's very good. The harder it is to keep secrets which need not be kept secret, the better for us all.

So, at the very least, give the man and the company the benefit of the doubt. He is not an idiot, I doubt he is evil, I doubt he is being an asshole. He is standing up to the wealthy and fighting for the general public not in some Hollywood film, but in our real life and he seems to be doing a good job.

So at the very least, support some neocon guy who favours torture and illegal wars and thinks he is above the law when wikileaks has actually done something which is deserving of being judged criminal.

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Who is really culpable for the release of these names?" The person who released the information.

elbanco I have no idea why, when I read your comment, you're at -2. I don't read a lot of HN lately, but this is the most irrational thread I have seen on HN for a long, long time. Quite frankly it makes me sad. I'm not going to wave my hands around and say we're turning into reddit. I don't see the need.

I think what I'm most troubled by is two things,

1) The level of false amnesia regarding all things Taliban, Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. There are some very not nice people there that would kill rape and murder every single person on the planet until they could convert the survivors to their particular brand of Islam. This is not a fantasy, this is their stated intent and has been demonstrated throughout the world for at least the last 10 years through a policy of terror attacks against soft targets from subways to nightclubs that have killed thousands of civilians. Anybody who pretends otherwise is a moron. I'm sorry to go to name calling, but I simply cannot have a productive debate with anybody too stupid to understand this.

2) The same idiots who think that our collective response should be...? What exactly? Whatever it is it certainly shouldn't be a military response followed by nation building.

The number of people here, right here, on Hacker News of all places, who obviously have commanded military and intelligence operations against non-uniformed combatants blended in to the local populace (and by the comments we have quite a few 3 and 4 star super generals with decades of counter insurgent operations experience), who know exactly the capabilities and limitations of not only the modern armed forces of industrialized nations, but all of the intelligence capabilities of the target countries. This is not a board about startups, the Pentagon and the intelligence agencies should come on here and discuss serious strategy, this place is a gold mine! Imagine, all these experts, on one board, and all they want to do is startup tech business and make iPhone apps! Amazing.

By the number of these self-same experts, my reading of their comments is that apparently the response to a global terror campaign is supposed to be a petition and letter campaign, sent to the Taliban HQ and 12345 Terror Lane, Springfield, Afghanistan, asking them to please kindly reconsider a policy of killing the infidel in foreign lands as part of a plan to establish a global Caliphate. Apparently this kind of thing is not only possible, but works! With the vast historic precedent put forth by all the experts here, it's amazing how misguided NATO is with their silly sniper teams and drones. Silly NATO!

Anybody who wants to talk about how Iraq was a stupid war and diverted resources from the real problems will find my agreement. Likewise if you want to talk about how the Afghan war was mismanaged, underfunded and stupidly run by incompetent bureaucrats for the better part of a decade.

But the response to the wikileaks leak should not be "OMG You mean when we conduct counter-terror operations with the combined might of NATO forces civilians might die! Holy crap, I didn't sign on for that! Let's pull the hell out and resume being terror targets because that was so much better!"

Re: Wikileaks Must Be Stopped

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who exactly do you think the "informants" are? So say I'm a dirt poor farmer in Afghanistan. I spent most of my time being terrorized by the Taliban (say for example, they burned my sister alive after they found out I taught her how to read). Now the NATO forces arrive, kick those assholes out, along the way they shell my barn and accidentally kill my brother. I'm pissed off, but on the balance, I know the NATO force…

Just playing Devil's advocate here[1], but consider this scenario Most Taliban commanders and fighters are part and parcel of the population, as is typical in any foreign invaders vs home grown guerrillas war - As an Afghan village elder said in Kandahar - "the people you call Taliban are my sister's son and his friends, they are our people" - and the Taliban have informants in the Afghan National Army and other depa…

Without going into a point-by-point agreement disagreement. I actually largely agree with your characterization of the situation. Which is the most powerful argument for why NATO must remain in Afghanistan for the time being. Until the situation is improved to the point that we can be reasonably sure that the festering cancer of the Taliban is no longer a threat to you and me, we have to try and improve the conditions there.
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