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The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

americanaffairsjournal.org

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Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#191

Post by taneq »

ewjordan wrote: post #180
smallnamespace wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You get to be a doctor only with quite a very long term intent and perseverance, by stacking the odds, and rolling the dice a lot. So what do you think is the value of P(becoming doctor | intent and perseverance)? If it's only 50%, then I'd argue that whether someone succeeds in becoming a doctor or not is indeed quite random. And maybe more relevant, but what are the factors that cause someone to have strong willp…

At some level most traits relevant to success are at least somewhat genetically influenced (intelligence, however measured, is estimated to be over 50% heritable). I'm sure willpower and perseverance are similar, and in that sense being hard working is kinda a roll of the dice, sure. But if we go that far, then almost everything about you is just random chance. Congratulations, we've realized that we're not special,…

Keep zooming out and we're all little hypertriangles in some N-dimensional cellular automaton, and there's no such thing as 'meaning', just patterns of higher or lower entropy. Don't think too much about it or it'll just make you depressed.

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#192

Post by fahayekwasright »

pessimizer wrote: post #81
ordu wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If his emotions are buried so deep, that there no way to see real world consequences of them, than maybe it is better to say, that there are no emotions? I think, that mottos in Western culture are just pathetic ones. Western culture knows nothing about how to raise steady emotions in people. I was born in USSR, and I saw how it should be done. But there is one consequence: with experience comes tolerance to external…

I've never heard a good case that emotions exist. I'm a believer that we have both a sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system that are activated reflexively by the same types of stimulation that activate them in other animals; and as humans who deal with abstractions as physical metaphors, those abstractions stimulate our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems by activating the same ancient reflexes. A…

You might like Minsky’s “The Emotion Machine.” Emotion is, as you say, essentially a higher order function of the nervous system—-some complex way of amplifying and dampening certain systems in order to adapt to circumstances. We understand emotion less clearly than we understand multilayer perceptrons/neural networks/basic learning and reasoning.

But even dogs seem to have emotions, don’t they? My dog gets excited if I offer him a treat, and sad if I don’t give it to him.

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#193

Post by Balgair »

nojvek wrote: post #152
Iv wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see the world as a giant lake full of ships going into different directions and sometimes turning around randomly. As an individual, you can try to get to steer a ship or you can try to jump to ships you cross with that go in other directions. Both strategies have a random aspect but if you know where you want to go, and act accordingly on the opportunities presented to you, you can progress toward your goal in an…

But sometimes you don’t even know where to go or your direction might be wrong. Randomly jumping ships you discover a friend that shows you a secret direction. Alternatively you are born with a very fast ship from your parents and can cover more distance. But you are right. Some people make the most of opportunities given to them, some just let it go thinking they have no influence over their life.

I think part of the point of the parable is that speed does not matter as there is no 'goal'. We all are just wandering about aimlessly enjoying the wind and sunshine. Sure, some move faster, but just to the other side of the big lake to have to scoot around. Some don't move at all and work on their tans. If you like the wind in your hair, find/make a fast boat.

(I think the parable starts to break down though. How to describe nations, laws, gender issues, etc? It's too much for such a 'happy' story to go into any depth.)

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#194

Post by seanmcdirmid »

user5994461 wrote: post #185
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they could try Shanghai.

The main offices are usually in NYC, London, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore. I don't think that Shanghai is an option.

There is some investment and finance going on in shanghai these days. It isn’t world-class, but everyone wants to be there to learn and look to the future. Kind of like how HK and Singapore were 40-50 years ago.

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#195

Post by hokkos »

thetruthseeker1 wrote: post #95

I thought it was a good/enjoyable article and it shed light on many things for me. Reading some of the comments below, and having known some Chinese people ( I am not east asian) I want to point out that it seems like many people missed the intention/ tone of the author. I think his intention was not to brag as some people have misunderstood, but to provide context to how he got to where he got to. His communication…

This is a story about randomness, the style follows.

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#196

Post by dgut »

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #13

"... randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor. And those reasons we assign to historical events are often just ex post rationalizations. As rising generations are taught the rationalizations, they conclude that things always happen for a reason. " I didn't realize it until contemplating this statement, but this applies to interpersonal relationships as well as nations. It is the root of tolerance an…

> "... randomness is not merely the noise but the dominant factor. And those reasons we assign to historical events are often just ex post rationalizations. As rising generations are taught the rationalizations, they conclude that things always happen for a reason. "

Took me some time to realize that. I haven't seen it so nicely formulated before, though.

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#197

Post by eternauta3k »

taneq wrote: post #191
ewjordan wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some level most traits relevant to success are at least somewhat genetically influenced (intelligence, however measured, is estimated to be over 50% heritable). I'm sure willpower and perseverance are similar, and in that sense being hard working is kinda a roll of the dice, sure. But if we go that far, then almost everything about you is just random chance. Congratulations, we've realized that we're not special,…

Keep zooming out and we're all little hypertriangles in some N-dimensional cellular automaton, and there's no such thing as 'meaning', just patterns of higher or lower entropy. Don't think too much about it or it'll just make you depressed.

Nihilism isn't the only option. This is a decent starting guide if you're curious: https://meaningness.com/

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#198

Post by nine_k »

DamonHD wrote: post #124
alexasmyths wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"post-hoc Just World fallacy wrapped up in those same statements of faith" Not really. We have built a progressively more just world - and it gets a little bit more just and civilized every generation that goes by. It's only possible when most people have some kind of faith, however crude, as the grind away at it. It does not happen by accident - over the long haul, it requires a Will.

It does NOT require any sort of religious will, and I posit that religion will be a steadily larger impediment to further progress if it does not fade. We have better and more nuanced ways of making the universe more just these days.

If you think that religious fervor is fading, look at all these people fighting for "just cases" of their choosing, from human rights to things like animal welfare. This fervor may be not attached to a belief in a particular deity, or something metaphysical at all. The feeling, and the mechanics, are still the same, to my mind.

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#199

Post by icebraining »

Tarq0n wrote: post #188
icebraining wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that tie with the statistics showing US citizens - and in particular more religious people - as good donors for charities and disaster victims? Seems contradictory.

Have you considered that charity and donation campaigns are perhaps more necessary in the US due to lack of social safety nets and governmental disaster relief?

Sure, but if it's the widespread belief in a Just World that prevents those safety nets and governmental disaster relief programs, wouldn't it also lead people to not donate?

Re: The Western Elite from a Chinese Perspective

#200

Post by nine_k »

SadWebDeveloper wrote: post #80
rsync wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"... break from the more deterministic "study hardest for success" vs relaxing a bit to optimize for happiness and embracing the impact of luck." Ahh, yes - the third generation ... "We are an immigrant nation. The first generation works their fingers to the bone making things; the next generation goes to college and innovates new ideas. The third generation snowboards and takes improv classes."[1] [1] http://article…

The fourth generation lives from the third and two well, the fifth generation again works their fingers to the bone making things.

...unless all the factories are already overseas.
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