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Better living through subliminal messages

mondo2000.com

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Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#21

Post by cardmagic »

binaryapparatus wrote: post #18
cardmagic wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“It works, I swear” says the snake oil salesman.

All of the comments on MAS are real user comments, read a few. I don't care if you are ignorant, but ignorant and rude makes dangerous combination.

No. Ignorant, rude, and swindling people out of their hard earned money with false promises makes a dangerous proposition. Frankly I don’t know how you sleep at night. Just because there’s a placebo effect doesn’t make it effective. Many properly executed double blind studies have debunked what you are selling for decades now.

Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#22

Post by cardmagic »

pessimizer wrote: post #19
Rhapso wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that this is likely no better than placebo. I'd argue that a systematic method for _self-aware_ triggering of the placebo effect (without having to pay anybody money for it) is fundamentally valuable.

I don't think they're saying that it's a different effect from placebo with the same effect size, but that it's actually the placebo effect. You can't treat yourself with something that you don't believe works and trigger the placebo effect.

Technically placebos still work even when you know they are placebos.[1]

[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/09/26/placebo-effect...

Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#23

Post by binaryapparatus »

cardmagic wrote: post #21
binaryapparatus wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the comments on MAS are real user comments, read a few. I don't care if you are ignorant, but ignorant and rude makes dangerous combination.

No. Ignorant, rude, and swindling people out of their hard earned money with false promises makes a dangerous proposition. Frankly I don’t know how you sleep at night. Just because there’s a placebo effect doesn’t make it effective. Many properly executed double blind studies have debunked what you are selling for decades now.

Money is of no importance here, since it doesn't make any meaningful percentage of my earnings. From any angle it is no profit pet project of mine.

On the other hand number of 'thank you' emails, from real people all over the world, greatly compensates for development hours.

Mechanics is very different from what you imagine it to be, placebo being only small part of the entire process. However it is very tiresome to explain it to somebody who is righteous about topic he doesn't know much about.

Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#24

Post by cardmagic »

binaryapparatus wrote: post #23
cardmagic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Ignorant, rude, and swindling people out of their hard earned money with false promises makes a dangerous proposition. Frankly I don’t know how you sleep at night. Just because there’s a placebo effect doesn’t make it effective. Many properly executed double blind studies have debunked what you are selling for decades now.

Money is of no importance here, since it doesn't make any meaningful percentage of my earnings. From any angle it is no profit pet project of mine. On the other hand number of 'thank you' emails, from real people all over the world, greatly compensates for development hours. Mechanics is very different from what you imagine it to be, placebo being only small part of the entire process. However it is very tiresome to…

Sure... and it's also so advanced that even double-blind researchers can't reproduce it.

I'm sorry that asking for rigorous science sounds like being righteous to you. I am not taking anybody's hard earned money with empty promises. You are.

If money’s not the issue, then stop charging people and give back the money you have received. That will prove to me that money’s not the issue.

Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#25

Post by binaryapparatus »

cardmagic wrote: post #24
binaryapparatus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is of no importance here, since it doesn't make any meaningful percentage of my earnings. From any angle it is no profit pet project of mine. On the other hand number of 'thank you' emails, from real people all over the world, greatly compensates for development hours. Mechanics is very different from what you imagine it to be, placebo being only small part of the entire process. However it is very tiresome to…

Sure... and it's also so advanced that even double-blind researchers can't reproduce it. I'm sorry that asking for rigorous science sounds like being righteous to you. I am not taking anybody's hard earned money with empty promises. You are. If money’s not the issue, then stop charging people and give back the money you have received. That will prove to me that money’s not the issue.

> Sure... and it's also so advanced that even double-blind researchers can't reproduce it.

I have no idea who and how performed studies, so it is not impossible to imagine if you don't really understand the process you can't use the tools properly and results will be questionable. I did research the topic probably ten or more years before I dared to write an app. At least 60% of the success is depending on how you phrase the message, so if it is not respecting mechanic you can flash messages all day long with no results. There is also _a lot_ depending on how you present the message -- if you are curious you can download app trial and check settings. Don't use the app, just see what options are there.

> I'm sorry that asking for rigorous science sounds like being righteous to you.

Righteous as in "church claims earth is flat, this guy disagrees, let's burn him". It is perfectly fine if you expect official dogma to tell you if something produces results -- please wait for that then.

Out of curiosity, you _are_ aware that all major players use subliminal messages in their commercials? Or not? If you know about that, why would they use them that way if there is no effect? If you don't know about that why we discuss the topic then?

> I am not taking anybody's hard earned money with empty promises. You are.

You really have no idea if they are empty, right?

Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#26

Post by cardmagic »

binaryapparatus wrote: post #25
cardmagic wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure... and it's also so advanced that even double-blind researchers can't reproduce it. I'm sorry that asking for rigorous science sounds like being righteous to you. I am not taking anybody's hard earned money with empty promises. You are. If money’s not the issue, then stop charging people and give back the money you have received. That will prove to me that money’s not the issue.

> Sure... and it's also so advanced that even double-blind researchers can't reproduce it. I have no idea who and how performed studies, so it is not impossible to imagine if you don't really understand the process you can't use the tools properly and results will be questionable. I did research the topic probably ten or more years before I dared to write an app. At least 60% of the success is depending on how you ph…

You ask that as if the burden of proof is on me. I’m not charging anyone for this hogwash, the burden of proof is on you. Other people selling snake oil too doesn’t make it any more effective. I can walk into any grocery store in the USA and find pure distilled water being marketed as homeopathic. That’s not proof that homeopathy has any effect more than placebo. I’m 100% sure that every snake oil salesman in history had an endless supply of testimonials and thankful words. They also didn’t stop charging for their snake oil, and it seems like you aren’t going to stop either. Seems like you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth too... this is from your website: “Constantly on Top 100 Grossing Lifestyle apps list in US Mac App Store since 2011”

So which is it? You make almost nothing or you are one of the highest grossing apps in the App Store? Please. I don’t believe a single word you say either way. If your moral framework allows you to profit off of gullibility, then anything you say is suspect.

Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#27

Post by binaryapparatus »

cardmagic wrote: post #26
binaryapparatus wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure... and it's also so advanced that even double-blind researchers can't reproduce it. I have no idea who and how performed studies, so it is not impossible to imagine if you don't really understand the process you can't use the tools properly and results will be questionable. I did research the topic probably ten or more years before I dared to write an app. At least 60% of the success is depending on how you ph…

You ask that as if the burden of proof is on me. I’m not charging anyone for this hogwash, the burden of proof is on you. Other people selling snake oil too doesn’t make it any more effective. I can walk into any grocery store in the USA and find pure distilled water being marketed as homeopathic. That’s not proof that homeopathy has any effect more than placebo. I’m 100% sure that every snake oil salesman in history…

> Seems like you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth too... this is from your website: “Constantly on Top 100 Grossing Lifestyle apps list in US Mac App Store since 2011”

It takes very few copies per month to reach MAS top lists, please google it if you don't know that, especially in less crowded 'lifestyle' category. I never said in the entire app store, I said in lifestyle category. So both claims are true but you are too blinded with rushing to prove 'other guy being wrong'. Being both constantly on top grossing lifestyle list and making almost no money is topic on its own, but the fact doesn't make any of those two claims less true.

Great majority of the Subliminal user base was reached trough https://stacksocial.com/sales/the-mac-freebie-bundle-4-0 several years ago. As you can see it was free bundle. StackSocial did 'pay' for all the free copies, it was mutual promotional move, with earnings of exactly whooping 1.3 cents per copy. Even paying customers never had to pay for any update, so far it was always one-time payment (if not free), since 2011. When you mention money as motivational factor it looks really funny on this side.

> hogwash, snake oil, both sides of your mouth, I don't believe a single word you say, profit off gullibility...

That's pretty strong wording to cover ignorance. You did first choose what to believe in, then put an effort to make it sound true?

I am now really curious to hear (at least short or yes/no) answers to the part you skipped:

"Out of curiosity, you _are_ aware that all major players use subliminal messages in their commercials? Or not? If you know about that, why would they use them that way if there is no effect? If you don't know about that why we discuss the topic then?"

Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#28

Post by mc32 »

jeffwass wrote: post #13

Back in High School (25 yrs ago, sheesh!) I did a research project on subliminal messages. I found some MS-DOS TSR program that would flash messages on the screen at specified duration or frequency. I told my test subjects (other students) I was testing if typing in vocabulary words helps learn them more efficiently. I made up a set of 50 words and definitions. Each student got a random mix of words and definitions t…

Ahhh, ST and Subliminal. I think there way a time the Ad business thought Subliminal messaging was a worthwhile avenue to pursue to increase effectiveness. I think they abandoned that tack either in the 70s or 80s --though ST came out with that song in the 80s.

Re: Better living through subliminal messages

#30

Post by enkiv2 »

cardmagic wrote: post #6

Subliminal messages have as shoddy a track record as homeopathy. At best this is a placebo effect.

As mentioned at the beginning of the article, we're essentially talking about priming. Subliminal advertising and subliminal persuasion is bunk, but spreading activation & other more subtle effects of priming are legitimate.

There's literally a whole section in this talking about how media depictions of the effects of priming are based on shoddy mid-century junk science. The article's premise does not rely upon such imaginary effects.

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