A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm • Hacker News Board

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#111

Post by astura » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

ShabbosGoy wrote: post #107

astura wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say you don't buy for lifestyle reasons but then go on to describe lifestyle reasons for your purchase: "animals that are loved like family" "helping [small farmers] make a living doing something that is good for everyone" "supporting people who aren't shitting on everyone's future." These are all lifestyle choices. You make your purchase not just because of the product but because of your identity, feelings, and…

> These are all lifestyle choices. You make your purchase not just because of the product but because of your identity, feelings, and values. I think it's the other way around. A product can have such good marketing that it gives the illusion of identity, feelings, and values - for example, fair trade coffee.

So what? That's irrelevant, it doesn't matter.

The purchase is still made at least partly because of the purchaser's identity, feelings, and values. It doesn't matter if the traits in question are all marketing or objective.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#112

Post by clord » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

We did this. My wife has a masters in microbio, and I worked at IBM on their C++ and for Fortran compilers for about 8 years (yay std::atomics). I still do remote contract work to help pay for upgrades to the farm. Would be nice to get one of my side-projects finished and start pumping out some income streams, but it's not a big rush anymore. I have a point of sale system built with React and Haskell that integrates with big payment processors, etc. that I sell to local businesses. Maybe one day i'll productize it and sell it as a package, but honestly my bills are paid and I don't feel the need to make more money than I do right now. Why take on the stress?

Why'd I switch to rural life? Quality of life. When we had kids and got a glimpse of what life would be like with daycare, two people commuting, etc, we got scared and made a plan. It's been 5 or 6 years and still enjoying selling expensive pasture fed eggs etc. I like working from home and having no childcare expenses. Everyone is happy and healthy and we have time to raise our kids.

I remember the limp office parties when we reached GA on some new release, and we'd eat cheap cake. Then I think of how we practically dance and shout at the sky in joy when we all finish digging up all the potatoes. The comparison is stark. Modern life is a dystopic hellscape from this perspective.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#113

Post by wu-ikkyu » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:45 PM UTC

ruc0la wrote: post #18

I am doing pretty much the same. I am currently an engineering student, working part-time as a programmer. Although the job market for programmers is excellent in Europe, I bought an apple orchard (via loan) pretty close to the capital of the country where I live. Due to the proximity of the capital city, I can sell my product at a decent price and earn more than an average senior dev here. I also enjoy being outside…

How long do you estimate it will take you to pay back the loan?

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#114

Post by Retric » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:45 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #79

Retric wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dad and grandfather both kept 2-3 acre food producing gardens as hobbies. So, I am well aware of what's involved. At those scales you want machinery, but you can use a Garden Tiller instead of a disk plow behind a tractor etc. Their are actually a lot of moderately expensive tools that scale up to ~80 acres without hitting the very high costs of an actual farm. Also often possible to find an actual farmer willing…

Fair enough Another thing I was going to point out is that farms smaller than 10 acres are actually the norm in many parts of the world. High intensity plots using walk-behind tractors and hand labour are common in Asia and in some parts of Europe. Much of Europe's vegetable production happens on 2-3 hectare properties. So I'm just objecting to you characterizing these small operations as "not farms" -- IMHO they're…

You're right I should preface this by limiting things to America. Making 7$ / day or 210$/month is a living wage in much of the world, but only adds up to ~2,500$/year. I am sure many of these farms provide a better standard of living than many of my ancestors had.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#115

Post by jrs95 » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

krrrh wrote: post #106

huehehue wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's at least a third explanation as well, which is the fact that eggs from farmer Tom down the road are likely to taste 1000x better than the egg-inspired food product in a McGriddle. I can't imagine many people are thinking "Screw local farmers, I want Tyson Chicken Nuggets!". That might be a bad example but the point is that cost is probably the bigger factor here, not politics or lifestyle or even taste.

I’m not disagreeing with the trust of your comment, but despite popular belief, McDonalds does use real eggs.[1,2] Though there’s no doubt that an egg from a chicken who has walked around, eating bits of grass and bugs, will taste better and have a better nutritional profile. [1] https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/does-your-egg-mcmu... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/01/27/are-mcdonalds-eggs-real-fast...

It does, but only the McMuffin sandwiches really taste like it. The others use the folded egg that they get premade and frozen.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#116

Post by tluyben2 » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:49 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #62

ratacat wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay ten dollars a gallon for fresh non pasteurized milk from a local family that has seven cows. I don't buy a lifestyle from them, I buy fucking good milk from animals that are loved like family, and I'm proud to be helping them make a living doing something that is good for everyone(including the cows). It's not a lifestyle, it's just supporting people who aren't shitting on everyone's future.

Lifestyle is your interests, opinions, and behaviour. Words you are using: proud , helping, doing good, supporting. These are all values that form the basis for your lifestyle. ps. non-pasteurized milk aka raw milk is not healthier and it's less safe. It's organic-natural consumer fad.

To me it tastes better; maybe it's what i'm used to but I find pasteurized milk quite horrible. Maybe it's just taste and other people love the taste of pasteurized. Never met those people, but that says nothing either. Raw milk cheese is also a lot nicer in my opinion.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#117

Post by davemp » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:50 PM UTC

krrrh wrote: post #106

huehehue wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's at least a third explanation as well, which is the fact that eggs from farmer Tom down the road are likely to taste 1000x better than the egg-inspired food product in a McGriddle. I can't imagine many people are thinking "Screw local farmers, I want Tyson Chicken Nuggets!". That might be a bad example but the point is that cost is probably the bigger factor here, not politics or lifestyle or even taste.

I’m not disagreeing with the trust of your comment, but despite popular belief, McDonalds does use real eggs.[1,2] Though there’s no doubt that an egg from a chicken who has walked around, eating bits of grass and bugs, will taste better and have a better nutritional profile. [1] https://yourquestions.mcdonalds.ca/answer/does-your-egg-mcmu... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2015/01/27/are-mcdonalds-eggs-real-fast...

Eggs are insanely cheap. I’m not sure why anyone would bother to fake them.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#118

Post by goialoq » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

huehehue wrote: post #77

metamet wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They want to distinguish themselves and buy the feeling of authentic life and values. More than this, I think there is a substantial portion of consumers who aren't as much attempting to distinguish themselves as they are realizing how important their dollar vote is. Buying from a small or local farm keeps money circulating locally (ideally). When there is a community of local businesses, this becomes amplified. It…

There's at least a third explanation as well, which is the fact that eggs from farmer Tom down the road are likely to taste 1000x better than the egg-inspired food product in a McGriddle. I can't imagine many people are thinking "Screw local farmers, I want Tyson Chicken Nuggets!". That might be a bad example but the point is that cost is probably the bigger factor here, not politics or lifestyle or even taste.

You are confusing a recipe that you don't like with an ingredient that you don't like.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#119

Post by gamegoblin » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:52 PM UTC

metamet wrote: post #59

nabla9 wrote: post #39

Some commentators here have difficulty of understanding how small farming can be profitable. It's relatively easy to explain. They are not selling just the product. Just like microbreweries, small farms sell for people who want more than just a beer or lettuce. They want to distinguish themselves and buy the feeling of authentic life and values. Consumer pays more for "small farm" even if the product is not any diffe…

> They want to distinguish themselves and buy the feeling of authentic life and values. More than this, I think there is a substantial portion of consumers who aren't as much attempting to distinguish themselves as they are realizing how important their dollar vote is. Buying from a small or local farm keeps money circulating locally (ideally). When there is a community of local businesses, this becomes amplified. It…

Questions to someone with more economics knowledge than me:

I understand the sentiment and intuitive reasoning behind this argument (I find myself thinking it every week when I go to the local farmers' market!), but is there evidence that "buying local" actually increases the local standard of living?

And a followup: if it does increase the local standard of living, would this behavior, if duplicated in all communities in the world, increase the average standard of living in the world?

Some conflicting (and probably all wrong) intuitions I have for different sides of these questions:

Pro local:

The notion of keeping money circulating locally makes sense. If money is a sort of proxy for productivity, then money leaving the community is productivity leaving the community.

Anti local:

If I pay more for Local Larry's eggs and Down-the-road Dave's cabbage (etc.), then to maintain my standard of living at a constant level, I have to charge more for whatever service I provide the community. And recursively, everyone else has to as well. It seems like, at best, we just wind up at the same standard of living we started at (and at worst, lower).

Pro local:

If money is a proxy for productivity, and buying non-local means trading productivity to some large corporation in exchange for some good or service, and that corporation will disproportionately funnel that money to the already-wealthy who can afford to save that money (productivity) for a rainy day, then we have effectively contributed to removing productivity from the economy.

Re: A growing number of young Americans are leaving desk jobs to farm

#120

Post by jrs95 » Fri, Nov 24, 2017, 5:52 PM UTC

I thought this was going to be about MMO currency. Very disappointed.

Really though, I'm not very surprised this is happening. Desk jobs can be pretty soul crushing. Sometimes I wonder how long it would take for me to learn Pennsylvania Dutch and join the Amish.