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I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

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Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#411
post #401
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind, cellular carrier stations (cell towers) don't just become congested; they're oversubscribed , pretty much all the time. Each level of cell service has essentially an SLA for minimum voice quality per line—which can be modelled as each customer having a fixed bandwidth allocation. So, at a given service tier, you can sacrifice latency (which doesn't work for real-time protocols) or drop packets (which is…

That's more an abstraction than reality. Frequency hopping means N senders may overlap but the abstraction is independent the IP part of TCP/IP or UDP so the device knows things failed instead of waiting for a timeout on a dropped packet. Thus IP software never sees latency spikes just lowered bandwidth or dropped connections.

To clarify, in the past the over subscription might have required dedicated bandwidth for voice but that's no longer the case.

Voice is very low bandwidth as long as the minimum bandwidth per device is over 100 kpbs and the device to prioritize voice data towers don't need to bother with QoS for traffic. They still do this for various reasons, including the fact they are sending the voice data to a separate network not the internet.

TLDR; Total bandwidth / devices > 100kbps and it's not actually over subscribed.

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bits sent across a wire use radio frequency transmission to do it. No, they are either electrons pushed across metal with voltage or light bouncing around fiber. This is absolutely not part of the RF spectrum.

They are pushed across at a specific frequency. Regardless, it is still communication. It's very clearly the domain of the Federal Communication Commission. If not, then the FCC is simply named wrong. Then whose domain does it belong a part of? FTC has clearly rejected the ability to solve neutrality issues.

It was named in 1934, and at that time the naming was fully appropriate. Ignoring history, inventing your own terms, and sticking your head in the sand could explain why you are confused about what the FCC is (as opposed to what you wish it were).

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#413
post #134

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> "If murder hadn't happened in a certain area yet, would it be 'too preemptive' to outlaw it?" But even with murder, the law doesn't stop murders before they happen, but rather only acts retroactively (and that is for good reason). > "Fast lanes DO exist in other countries right now." But this is ignoring the whole debate: proponents of net freedom don't consider fast lanes to be a problem.

What sort of idiotic nonsense is this? The law absolutely provides for law enforcement intervention to stop a murder from happening, and to charge the perpetrator(s) with attempted murder or conspiracy to commit murder. And I'm sure some people think murder is not a problem, but most of the rest of us think they're also crazy. You know, if the ISPs were better at selling this particular turd sandwich, or turd polishi…

We've asked you several times to stop breaking the guidelines. Would you please try to do better?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#414
post #403

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It feels like you're going for an economist version of this xkcd. https://xkcd.com/793/

I'm assuming you disagree with the conclusions of the studies cited for the number of deaths caused by the FDA? Any particular reason?

I haven't looked into it enough to have an opinion one way or another. I suspect that the article is cherry-picking, but perhaps the FDA is so critically fucked up that randos off the street could do a better job. But this isn't about the FDA. You're claiming that knowing a lot about economic regulation makes you a superior domain expert in any field which can be regulated. That economists are better qualified than doctors to regulate dangerous medicines, better qualified than ecologists and meteorologists to predict human-caused climate trends, better qualified than automotive engineers to determine what makes vehicles safe. That's very silly.

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#415
post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm assuming you disagree with the conclusions of the studies cited for the number of deaths caused by the FDA? Any particular reason?

I haven't looked into it enough to have an opinion one way or another. I suspect that the article is cherry-picking, but perhaps the FDA is so critically fucked up that randos off the street could do a better job. But this isn't about the FDA. You're claiming that knowing a lot about economic regulation makes you a superior domain expert in any field which can be regulated. That economists are better qualified than d…

"You're claiming that knowing a lot about economic regulation makes you a superior domain expert in any field which can be regulated."

Not quite. I'm claiming that knowing a lot about regulation makes you more qualified to study the effects of various regulations, after listening to input from domain experts in the field.

An automotive engineer can tell you that requiring component X in all vehicles would make accidents Y% less fatal - an economist can tell you whether that actually translates to lives saved (maybe it increases the risk of accidents due to behavioral changes? This was a theory around seatbelts for some time although I can't speak to the current consensus in the field).

Sure, an economist who isn't allowed to speak to the relevant domain experts wouldn't do well. But likewise, a domain expert who doesn't know economics wouldn't do well either. Understanding side effects of regulation, incentives, etc are critically important for crafting regulation/public policy that actually help.

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a minute, the opposite of net neutrality is called "net freedom "? This is sick (the lack of net neutrality is more likely to reduce freedoms than to promote them). If you remotely support net neutrality, please never use that term again. This is self defeating.

More like net favoritism

Not sure about the downvotes but whatever floats your boat

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#417
post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make no mistake, Pai is a former Verizon lawyer, he's not misled as he is intentionally misleading. He knows very well the ISPs will exploit as much as they can and then rely on a slow legal system to keep it going. He knows very well the ISPs want the benefits of being a monopoly with none of the regulations. Why do you think he prematurely said the states will not be able to pass their own net neutrality laws? The…

He is specifically talking about blocking web traffic, "The answer to the first is we're not sure", not fast lanes. Repealing NN will do that, every time you have regulations you have to hire another team of lawyers and accountants; which only large corporations can afford––it's just another barrier of entry to market.

Except we have seen cases of blocking before in the US, so even by that interpretation he's misleading people: in 2005, North Carolina-based ISP (and phone company) Madison River blocked customers from using Vonage. More recently, Verizon blocked its customers from installing Google Wallet on their phones and AT&T tried to block its customers from using Skype on iPhones...

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a problem with that idea, which is that then the internet is at the mercy of those in congress who want to shut down the government all the time, because they won't pass a budget unless we go on a governmental starvation diet, while at the same time giving tax breaks to the rich.

Then let's replace the government with open source AI and ML algorithms. End corruption!

Given how well that works for YouTube at the moment, I'm not so sure that's a good idea.

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#419
post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain what false history are you taking about? Internet from the beginning treated all traffic the same, this was because: - lack of technology to do deep packet inspection at large scale - competition, during dial-up times anyone with a phone could become an ISP, the phone did not discriminate due to regulation, then ISDN and DSL came and due to regulations telcos were required to lease their lines to an…

For ~20 years the internet somehow functioned well without title ii regulations. So yes, I agree with you that "Internet from the beginning treated all traffic the same" and "During those times Internet was neutral and all sites were treated the same". Ajit Pai's proposal seeks to roll back these relatively new title 2 regulations. > I can't believe anyone would be ok with giving power to companies (ones that have mo…

> For ~20 years the internet somehow functioned well without title ii regulations. So yes, I agree with you that "Internet from the beginning treated all traffic the same" and "During those times Internet was neutral and all sites were treated the same". Ajit Pai's proposal seeks to roll back these relatively new title 2 regulations.

In US Internet was classified as a telecommunication service, so it was following similar restrictions. Back in 2002 FCC reclassified it as information service, with lesser restrictions. Since then companies violated net neutrality multiple times[1], but each time they backed out after FCC got involved. Not until Verizon sued them and won in 2014. The court ruling essentially stated that FCC has no control over ISPs anymore until the Internet would be reclassified. Because of that FCC reclassified it under Title II.

So no, what happened in past ~20 years is just small taste what's will happen. The 2014 ruling got the cat out of the box. Now all ISPs know that if Title II classification is removed FCC no longer has any power over them. And worst of all since there's monopoly, we can't just vote with our wallet, without regulation we as customers are simply screwed.

> Likewise, I can't see why anyone would give more power to government (especially those who don't support the current government) to decide what is "fair" and "neutral".

The decision what's fair and neutral is very simple to make. ISPs are just there to provide Internet access and can't control what we can access and what not similarly as an electric company provides electricity, but can't tell me what brand of a dishwasher I can use.

Regulations are there to protected a consumer, would you also be ok if FDA would allowed companies to add poison to our food if that would help them save money, because they will (especially when they are public companies when number #1 goal is to make profit) if they were able to. Before you answer that, know that requirement of labeling what's in the food is also imposed by the FDA.

I know that you're thinking that FCC planned is not an issue, because free market will solve this. The problem is that there's no free market right now. Vast majority of people have at most 1 viable ISP, if you have 2 you're really lucky.

It's extremely hard to enter the market right now, the best example is Google Fiber, a company which almost has unlimited resources (they can afford to work on projects like self driving cars, or photograph streets all over the world so they can improve one of their products (not even a core product) that they offer) is giving up. If they can't who else do you think could enter that market?

When cities want to provide a municipal network they get sued by these ISPs.

The FCC plan to repeal also wants to prevent states on implementing own rules in that area.

How can you be ok with this? It's not just other people who are affected by it, you will be too.

Also, and it is sad that this is not mentioned, it's not just net neutrality that is at stake here. Once that change is made, there won't be anything preventing incumbent ISPs from filtering content that they don't like. A small example is Telius from Canada blocking site that was supporting labor strike against them. Imagine that this could also be used for political control.

[1] https://www.freepress.net/blog/2017/04/25/net-neutrality-vio...

Re: I'm on the FCC. Please stop us from killing net neutrality

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that NN does not prohibit it for traffic engineering purposes. Not outright but it does restrict it specifically to prevent it from being a backdoor for this kind of edge provider discrimination.

There's zero discrimination in here. It is basic network engineering: 1. Terminate transit on transit-edge. All routes form transit edge get preference X. 2. Terminate peering routes on peering-edge. All routes from peering edge get preference Y. Oh wait ma, I have traffic engineering and it matches $$. Aint life grand? NN rules are what happens when dilettantes who have never seen a 20U sized router are in charge of…

So you're in favor of eliminating NN rules?

TCP/IP is optimized for neutral nodes in a network, sure you're doing traffic engineering, throttling is already happening. At a network level this makes sense, doesn't make sense that we give ISPs carte Blanche to openly start filtering traffic based on any rules they see fit. The people who want to repeal NN are the suits, not traffic engineers and techies like yourself. Obviously

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