Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 339 posts

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#171

Post by tw04 »

jasode wrote: post #148
tw04 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This pattern isn't as simple to dismiss as "anti-union FUD", especially since it's seen among people who are already union members in closed shops. You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point? If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hea…

>For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the bigger picture is often lost. Isn't it possible the armchair talking heads like us are the ones missing the bigger picture and the actual workers are the ones who actually get it? Let's consider the Boeing workers in South Carolina: - 2009-09 74% of employees vote against the union and decertify it[1] - 2009-10 Boeing breaks ground on new South…

>The "uncertainty" and "doubt" in "FUD"? The South Carolina workers are quite certain and have no doubt that Seattle lost the extra 787 assembly work and it was given to SC workers without the union.

That's where a properly functioning government steps in and stops it. OF COURSE private companies are going to break a union any way possible if the government isn't there to step in. If the US military said "you close that plant, all of our contracts are going to Airbus", exactly how many seconds do you think it would take the CEO of Boeing to change his mind?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#172

Post by jore »

jasode wrote: post #148
tw04 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This pattern isn't as simple to dismiss as "anti-union FUD", especially since it's seen among people who are already union members in closed shops. You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point? If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hea…

>For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the bigger picture is often lost. Isn't it possible the armchair talking heads like us are the ones missing the bigger picture and the actual workers are the ones who actually get it? Let's consider the Boeing workers in South Carolina: - 2009-09 74% of employees vote against the union and decertify it[1] - 2009-10 Boeing breaks ground on new South…

great example

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#173

Post by specialist »

bogomipz wrote: post #130
brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

>" The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years." That's quite a claim, do you have any data to back that up? That just sounds like another claim intended to politicize things in some binary fashion - left vs right. Which is ironic because it is this same FUD tactic that politicians use to get people to react with their gut rather than…

You're correct that the battle lines are not cleanly left vs right. Rather it's corporations vs labor, capital vs democracy. Same as it's ever been.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#174

Post by stale2002 »

09094920394314 wrote: post #163
stale2002 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The attitude of social contracts and not caring about people's free choice to not join unions. And thinking "oh, don't like unions, tough luck, go find another job or move to another country". > But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join? But they ARE allowed to force me to join, under threat of being fired, in some states. So that's why. If the US h…

So you want to protect your free choice...by taking way the free choice of others to organize? For fear of something which does not happen because there is already a law against it ? http://gotfired.com/blog/2016/04/can-i-be-fired-for-not-join... >You are protected by law in all 50 states from being fired from your job for not joining a union. You can be only liable for no more than the requirement to pay either unio…

> So you want to protect your free choice...by taking way the free choice of others to organize

Yes. They want to do it to me, so why wouldn't I do it to them? That just puts me at a disadvantage for following rules that my opponents refuse to follow.

But "taking away their right to organize" is a bit of a stretch.

They should be able to "organize", in the colloquial sense of lobbying, talking to other people, expressing their opinion, and negotiating in groups, all they want in support of their cause.

Freedom of association, as defined in the first amendment of US Constitution, applies to them too.

And in turn, I will "organize" AGAINST their cause, as is also MY right.

Disagreeing with someone, and organizing against them, is not the same as taking away THEIR right to "organize".

And yes, you can be fired, if you refuse to pay the union required fee. That's the same thing as being forced to join. Go get your money from people who chose, of their own free will, to join.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#175

Post by TulliusCicero »

rconti wrote: post #158
TulliusCicero wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Right-to-work laws are like prop 13 in California: sounds good on the surface, but hidden terrible impact. On the surface, "I should be able to choose whether or not I join a union" makes sense, Americans lo…

I absolutely agree free riders are a problem with unions. But that doesn't mean right to work laws shouldn't exist. Maybe it just means unions shouldn't exist. I mean, if your entire business model is flawed, should the world change around your business model? This is more of a devil's advocate position, as I'm not particularly anti-union, but I personally have zero desire to work in a union or be forced to be in one…

Right to work laws are an intrusion on the free market intended to subvert unions. I'm okay with regulations on the market as long as there's a good reason, but what exactly is the compelling public interest there in blocking this one type of employment contract clause?

Like, employers can require you to do all kinds of things in a contract: wear certain types of clothes, tell you when and where to show up for work, how much you're paid, etc. We regulate some things like health and safety codes because the regulations themselves are clearly in the best interest of the workforce, but who do right-to-work laws ultimately serve?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#176

Post by specialist »

brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

The decline of Labor is directly correlated to the current glut of labor, accelerated by the anti-labor rhetoric and aggression:

* salary fixing * wage theft * shift of tax burden from capital to labor * raiding pensions, defunding retirement plans * denying collective bargaining * tying healthcare insurance to employment * etc, etc

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#177

Post by rsynnott »

splouk wrote: post #127
malchow wrote: post #76

Stories like this will, in the near future, be part of the story about why Brexit was NBD.

Could you elaborate?

Presumably no-one will want to strike after Brexit, due to all the Red, White and Blueness.

I dunno, maybe they think May will declare herself dictator for life and ban organised labour or something?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#178

Post by TulliusCicero »

chimeracoder wrote: post #100
TulliusCicero wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Right-to-work laws are like prop 13 in California: sounds good on the surface, but hidden terrible impact. On the surface, "I should be able to choose whether or not I join a union" makes sense, Americans lo…

> But of course, in practice people who choose not to join a union get to freeload: they get most of the benefit of the union in how it informs a company's general policies and culture about workers, but don't have to pay any fees It doesn't sounds like they want any of those so-called benefits. As explained below, the data suggests that if members could feasibly decertify or deauthorize their unions entirely, they w…

> That means less than 7% voted against it, and the remainder never had an opportunity to vote at all.

I mean, most employer policies never get any kind of vote from any subset of the employees, so I'm not sure why I should be so outraged about this one in particular when it seems to be usually to workers' benefit.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#179

Post by hackermailman »

nindalf wrote: post #128

> The company said salaries paid to its workers were among the highest in the logistic sector and that it also provided some benefits such as private medical insurance or money to pay for training programs. Not a criticism of either Amazon or the unions but I would really appreciate it if news sources would verify these claims one way or another. Obviously as a wire service, that may not be Reuters' job but whether A…

I talk to workers here in Canada the starting salaries and benefits are about average, definitely not 'highest in the sector' or any such nonsense though maybe in Europe they are in order to attract employees. Here they are expected to do 10-12hr overtime shifts every day, and work as hard as possible without breaks to make bonuses which are inconsistent, and because there's no union representation harassment galore goes on with managers phoning you at home all hours to answer non-critical questions that could have waited until your next shift.

This old Gawker article accurately describes the warehouse conditions http://gawker.com/inside-an-amazon-warehouse-the-relentless-...

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#180

Post by chimeracoder »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #178
chimeracoder wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But of course, in practice people who choose not to join a union get to freeload: they get most of the benefit of the union in how it informs a company's general policies and culture about workers, but don't have to pay any fees It doesn't sounds like they want any of those so-called benefits. As explained below, the data suggests that if members could feasibly decertify or deauthorize their unions entirely, they w…

> That means less than 7% voted against it, and the remainder never had an opportunity to vote at all. I mean, most employer policies never get any kind of vote from any subset of the employees, so I'm not sure why I should be so outraged about this one in particular when it seems to be usually to workers' benefit.

> I'm not sure why I should be so outraged about this one in particular when it seems to be usually to workers' benefit.

Clearly they don't think it's to their benefit, or else they wouldn't be trying to decertify or deauthorize it.

Post reply on HN