I don’t want to be a software developer anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#151

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 4:56 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #150

jameskegel wrote: post #11

I read the article; I'm not sure this is so much a criticism of the industry as it is an examination of this developer's personal anecdotal experience. As developers, we lead a very charmed life that others sometimes aren't even born with the chance to intellectually compete for; the author neglects to address how lucky we are to be able to do this at all, let alone to then find employment in it. If it's not an indus…

This one hits hard. As a front end developer, when people ask what I do, I say "I make buttons". Red buttons, blue buttons, big buttons, small buttons. Any kind of button you can imagine. I spend my life making buttons light up on a colorful screen. And then people click on those buttons and I get paid an obscene amount of money for it. I'm not sure if this is how people are supposed to live. It's driving me mad. But…

"I spend my life making buttons light up on a colorful screen."

Anything can be cynically reduced to some absurd description. You do your (very sensible) argument a disservice by doing that.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#152

Post by stickfigure » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #120

tboyd47 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't she? Maybe she wanted to get her foot in the door. The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them.

>Why wouldn't she? Because it's unethical to agree to work for a rate you're not actually willing to work for. She wasted a lot of people's time and resources to bring her on board for those three weeks. >The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them. I wouldn't want to work with a person who accepts an offer and then THREE WEEKS later starts demanding raises, no matter what th…

It's possibly more complex than that? Maybe she was willing to work for less given other soft-factors; when she arrived, perhaps she found those soft-factors illusory (different boss; different project or work scope; coworkers aren't so fun after all, etc). In that case, asking for a raise is pretty reasonable.

Also, she may have simply gotten an offer she couldn't refuse from another company. You could argue that this shows poor ethics, but don't delude yourself, everyone has a price. She may have been generous asking her company to match.

Let's not judge people based on thin second-hand accounts.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#153

Post by quotemstr » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:00 PM UTC

iamleppert wrote: post #78

I too am planning my departure from the tech industry. I've been at several major startups in the bay area and I've worked for large tech companies. I'm one of those people who are completely self-taught and passionate about technology, and I'm good at what I do. For me its a creative outlet. However, the dark side to this is that I'm frequently taken advantage of. And like the author in the article, I often work alo…

What's amazing is that perfectly good tech companies become the kind of hell you describe. Every single one --- it's just a matter of time.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#154

Post by pmoriarty » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:01 PM UTC

johnnymonster wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to read articles like this. If you don't like working at a high paying tech job, please quit and dig trenches, drag brush, or pick lettuce for minimum wage and no benefits. Then come tell me how much it sucks to write fragments of code while sitting in your air conditioned office.

"If you don't like working at a high paying tech job, please quit and dig trenches, drag brush, or pick lettuce for minimum wage and no benefits."

Those trench diggers, brush draggers, and lettuce pickers are actually lucky and should be grateful for the jobs they have. If not, they should try picking through garbage to make their living, working in toxic mines, or defusing bombs.

There are always worse jobs than the one you've got. That doesn't mean your job doesn't suck, that you shouldn't complain or try to get a better one.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#155

Post by Frondo » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:01 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #120

tboyd47 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't she? Maybe she wanted to get her foot in the door. The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them.

>Why wouldn't she? Because it's unethical to agree to work for a rate you're not actually willing to work for. She wasted a lot of people's time and resources to bring her on board for those three weeks. >The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them. I wouldn't want to work with a person who accepts an offer and then THREE WEEKS later starts demanding raises, no matter what th…

Oh, no no no.

If they can fire us at any time, we can leave at any time.

There should be absolutely nothing in anyone that says "work for less than what you're worth".

Whatever her reasons for going for and getting what she wanted, good for her. And any ethical system that says "work for less than what you're worth in an at-will environment" is a bad ethical system, full stop.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#156

Post by tboyd47 » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #142

golemotron wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However we do live in a world where we have to prioritize because we each have finite time. The social issues of tech work will never be as dire as issues of poverty, child welfare or health care. Our privilege blinds us to this.

I hate this attitude. Well hate is not nearly a strong enough word for my sentiment, but I refuse to feel unearned guilt over somebody else not having what I have. I will work on improving my life and then they can work on improving theirs. I might have cared, once, but I have been hit in the head so much with attitudes like yours that I just don't care anymore.

Exactly, and even if you did, why would that unearned guilt stop you from being concerned about yourself and the people directly around you?

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#157

Post by smnplk » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

How about if I say this: Just because other people have it worse, doesn't mean that software developers are privileged or lucky. Many don't enjoy it, but they've put in hard work to learn it. I don't like how the word privileged get's tossed around these days.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#158

Post by jasonmaydie » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #154

johnnymonster wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to read articles like this. If you don't like working at a high paying tech job, please quit and dig trenches, drag brush, or pick lettuce for minimum wage and no benefits. Then come tell me how much it sucks to write fragments of code while sitting in your air conditioned office.

"If you don't like working at a high paying tech job, please quit and dig trenches, drag brush, or pick lettuce for minimum wage and no benefits." Those trench diggers, brush draggers, and lettuce pickers are actually lucky and should be grateful for the jobs they have. If not, they should try picking through garbage to make their living, working in toxic mines, or defusing bombs. There are always worse jobs than the…

her job doesn't suck and frankly it doesn't get any better than what she has. The article pretty much boils do I have to do something unexciting because I need money. Welcome to the real world

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#159

Post by w0rd-driven » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #120

tboyd47 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't she? Maybe she wanted to get her foot in the door. The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them.

>Why wouldn't she? Because it's unethical to agree to work for a rate you're not actually willing to work for. She wasted a lot of people's time and resources to bring her on board for those three weeks. >The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them. I wouldn't want to work with a person who accepts an offer and then THREE WEEKS later starts demanding raises, no matter what th…

A bit of anecdata: my second software only gig (started in IT) was offered a very lowball rate with a '90 day eval' to bump my pay that came and went. 12 weeks isn't 3 but it took getting another offer to get a raise I more than rightly deserved. I was killing it and everyone knew it.

While 3 weeks sounds like a very short evaluation period, there very much could've been an arrangement like this. I hesitate to use the word 'unethical' primarily due to how pervasive Hanlon's razor really is. She gave them 3 weeks of seemingly extremely productive work and gave them a taste of the caliber of developer they could hire if they just threw enough money at the problem but it sounds like they didn't learn. Every experience like this is a chance to learn something but some companies just fold churn into the equation without properly evaluating what they could do to prevent it. Usually its those companies that think developers are just equal cogs capable of performing all the same tasks at the same magically high productivity level. They rarely learn that you sometimes actually do get what you pay for.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#160

Post by analog31 » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #120

tboyd47 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't she? Maybe she wanted to get her foot in the door. The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them.

>Why wouldn't she? Because it's unethical to agree to work for a rate you're not actually willing to work for. She wasted a lot of people's time and resources to bring her on board for those three weeks. >The point I'm trying to make is that the company needed her more than she needed them. I wouldn't want to work with a person who accepts an offer and then THREE WEEKS later starts demanding raises, no matter what th…

She might have ended up liking the job enough to stay, just as the employer might have liked her enough to keep her. That's the extent of the obligation between employer and employee -- so called "employment at will." Companies have fought vigorously to maintain this arrangement.