Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday • Hacker News Board

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#151

Post by firstplacelast » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

09094920394314 wrote: post #69

colejohnson66 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not FUD when you literally have unions such as ones for police who fight tooth and nail to keep bad employees working there. Sure, that’s what a union is supposed to do, but there needs to be a line, and no one wants to define it.

It's still FUD, it just means some unions are corrupt. Or maybe more whataboutism. Imagine if we all (and not just the left) talked about companies the same way we talk about unions, using the countless examples of managerial abuse, wage theft etc. as examples. Would you say that would be reasonable? And preemptively, this is not a "both sides" question either. Everything is grey, but there are shades of grey. And wh…

Thanks for this. Every time unions are mentioned people want to turn it into a black/white issue and won't allow for shades of grey.

Unions can be great for workers. They can also fuck up markets and/or workers. What's wrong with taking the good and improving the bad for unions in the 21st century?

That's literally what 99% of the start-ups in Silicon Valley are doing in various verticals.

The black/white thinking when it comes to discussion of unions always feels like people have more of an agenda to push that being interested in any meaningful discussion.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#152

Post by alexasmyths » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 4:53 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #53

oblio wrote: post #4

Now that's something I haven't heard about in the US for a few decades: strikes. I'm partly kidding, but have there been any major strikes in the US lately?

Strikers in US media are often belittled. Think back to the Occupy Movement. The banks were bailed out, none of those people who caused so much misery were ever put in jail, and the media belittled Occupy as being directionless and pointless. The protest was huge, stretching across cities and countries, but there was never any accountability for the banksters. It shows again as the Equifax execs were cleared of insid…

"Think back to the Occupy Movement."

This was not a strike, not remotely.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#153

Post by petre » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

djsumdog wrote: post #53

oblio wrote: post #4

Now that's something I haven't heard about in the US for a few decades: strikes. I'm partly kidding, but have there been any major strikes in the US lately?

Strikers in US media are often belittled. Think back to the Occupy Movement. The banks were bailed out, none of those people who caused so much misery were ever put in jail, and the media belittled Occupy as being directionless and pointless. The protest was huge, stretching across cities and countries, but there was never any accountability for the banksters. It shows again as the Equifax execs were cleared of insid…

Bankers almost never go to jail in the US. Have you ever heard the expression "too big to jail"?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#154

Post by tryingagainbro » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 4:55 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #131

brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

Unions and expensive pensions contributed significantly to the bankruptcy of General Motors. If not for a government bail out we'd barely have an American auto industry.

Exec salaries, golden parachutes, mistakes in management, dividends etc over the decades played no role right?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#155

Post by crdoconnor » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 4:57 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #113

tw04 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This pattern isn't as simple to dismiss as "anti-union FUD", especially since it's seen among people who are already union members in closed shops. You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point? If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hea…

> You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point? If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hear that unions just take my money while providing no benefit, I'm probably likely to be swayed. What's the union going to do? Tell me about how 50 y…

>Honestly, it's rather patronizing to say that union members who disapprove of their union and want to decertify or deauthorize it must either be ignorant or under the influence of external propaganda or FUD.

Is it patronizing to say that workers who respond to threats like this:

http://www.nysun.com/business/wal-mart-threatens-to-close-un...

might not be making the best risk/reward trade off?

The employer is hardly going to tell you if they're making an empty threat and the prospect of losing your job because they pulled the nuclear option is probably quite terrifying.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#156

Post by cmurf » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:00 PM UTC

hackbinary wrote: post #104

chimeracoder wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a "FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Similarly,…

>> It's way more complicated than that ... I don't think so. The media (the 4th estate) is now basically a mouth piece for the corporations. Noam Chompsky has written extensively on this, and the west really does not have a diverse spectrum of opinion, information, and perspective in popular, widely distributed and readily available information sources. Media and information sources have been consolidated into a few…

There are a handful of nonprofits in the journalism business, but they are small. The Nevada Independent and the Texas Tribune.

Many nonprofits educate/persuade as part of growing their membership and fund raising. Their motives are simpler and easier to figure out bias for the purpose of triangulation. This is not the same thing as journalism.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#157

Post by stale2002 » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:00 PM UTC

09094920394314 wrote: post #141

stale2002 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why I will never ever support a union in my industry (tech) . Fortunately, the rest of my industry agrees with me. And ALSO, fortunately, union support is massively going down all across the US. It looks like that social contract of yours is changing. Perhaps because of attitudes like yours. I will not "be a good loser". I will oppose union efforts anywhere and everywhere, no matter what, because any powe…

What exactly is "my attitude" please? And good on you, others will either agree or disagree with you. But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join? And with whom would you...organize to stop union efforts?

The attitude of social contracts and not caring about people's free choice to not join unions. And thinking "oh, don't like unions, tough luck, go find another job or move to another country".

> But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join?

But they ARE allowed to force me to join, under threat of being fired, in some states. So that's why.

If the US had universal right to work laws, where you could not be fired for refusing to join a union, then I wouldnt care and wouldn't bother organizing against unions.

The attitude of "screw you for standing up for your right to not join an organization" is very common among union supporters, which is the reason why I oppose them.

I organize against unions already, by supporting right to work laws, and supporting politicians who do as well, and donating to these efforts.

There are a ton of existing efforts to protect worker's rights of voluntary association, and their right to not join organizations that they don't support.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#158

Post by rconti » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:00 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #97

chimeracoder wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a "FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Similarly,…

> Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Right-to-work laws are like prop 13 in California: sounds good on the surface, but hidden terrible impact. On the surface, "I should be able to choose whether or not I join a union" makes sense, Americans lo…

I absolutely agree free riders are a problem with unions.

But that doesn't mean right to work laws shouldn't exist. Maybe it just means unions shouldn't exist.

I mean, if your entire business model is flawed, should the world change around your business model?

This is more of a devil's advocate position, as I'm not particularly anti-union, but I personally have zero desire to work in a union or be forced to be in one.

I refuse to say that unions have no place in the world, or have no place in certain industries, or didn't have a place in the past. I'm rather neutral on a lot of it, but the fact is the problem is inherent in the union itself.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#159

Post by petre » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:02 PM UTC

tcbawo wrote: post #28

oblio wrote: post #4

Now that's something I haven't heard about in the US for a few decades: strikes. I'm partly kidding, but have there been any major strikes in the US lately?

It seems that the only unions with enough clout to strike are public workers. I've seen teachers strike or threaten to strike from to time. In the private sector, the potential win isn't worth the risk, since long term benefits are mostly off the table already.

Depends. Also workers in huge organizations like GM, Amazon etc. In the UK Amazon makes deliveries using contractors who barely have time to eat or go to the toilet. They can't go on strike since they're not employees.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#160

Post by rconti » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

ksec wrote: post #90

brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

Erosion of Middle Class "may" have started long before, but it rapidly took off after 2008. ( There are Middle Class / Level wages, but those wages dont put them in Middle Class anymore )* The way I see it, is either Government protect their Workers and working class with benefits and wages, Like what many parts of Europe have done or they allow Union to do it. And i know this is considered an extremely unpopular opi…

*citation needed.

In economic terms, 2008 was basically yesterday. Everything I've read points to the erosion of the middle class being related to stagnant wages in real terms going back DECADES.