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Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

reuters.com

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Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#141

Post by 09094920394314 »

stale2002 wrote: post #117
09094920394314 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about we change the laws so that people who support the union are free to join, and people who DON'T are free to leave? >If unions are so great, then they should stand on their own 2 feet, instead of forcing everyone to join them. If you can convince enough people, you can? But if people organize against you, be a good loser. Nobody except the very hardcore is saying: >If private property is so great, then ever…

And this is why I will never ever support a union in my industry (tech) . Fortunately, the rest of my industry agrees with me. And ALSO, fortunately, union support is massively going down all across the US. It looks like that social contract of yours is changing. Perhaps because of attitudes like yours. I will not "be a good loser". I will oppose union efforts anywhere and everywhere, no matter what, because any powe…

What exactly is "my attitude" please?

And good on you, others will either agree or disagree with you. But I do wonder, why should you be allowed to stop union efforts if others aren't allowed to force you to join? And with whom would you...organize to stop union efforts?

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#142

Post by [deleted] »

stale2002 wrote: post #133
c0nducktr wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody's forcing you to work for a union shop. Find a place that isn't unionized if you don't want to be part of a union.

Instead of doing that I am just going to oppose all unions everywhere and try and prevent them from getting any power at all. Why? Because as soon as they get a foothold, it is done. Over. Can't get rid of them. There are literally rules where they can fire you for trying to end the union. If it weren't for attitudes like yours, I wouldn't be opposing unions. But your attitude DOES exist, so my only option is all out…

[deleted]

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#143

Post by tested23 »

icebraining wrote: post #114
tdeck wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, discount days are regulated in France (called "les soldes"); normally you can't have a discount day any time you want, you have to apply for authorization. What is the rationale for that?

Portugal has the same rule (and before you couldn't have them at all except in two periods in the year defined by law). The reasoning is to protect small shops from large retailers, by preventing them from forcing unplanned price wars. Similarly, for many years the very large retailers couldn't open on Sunday afternoons, although that restriction mostly benefited the large chains of medium-sized shops, since it was b…

So basically some anti competitive bullshit that is further hampering the already struggling French economy. I am so thankful that I live in the us.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#144

Post by tedmiston »

Kiro wrote: post #111

> The company said salaries paid to its workers were among the highest in the logistic sector and that it also provided some benefits such as private medical insurance or money to pay for training programs. I don't understand how you can strike if this is true.

It could be that they define logistics sector very broadly intentionally so that it includes a high number of low pay workers, such as those making minimum wage.

Or, how Amazon defines the aggregate of "salaries paid to its workers" — average, median, max, etc?

I'm generally skeptical of hand wavy claims that like this that shy far away from real numbers.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#145

Post by petre »

ksec wrote: post #90
brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

Erosion of Middle Class "may" have started long before, but it rapidly took off after 2008. ( There are Middle Class / Level wages, but those wages dont put them in Middle Class anymore )* The way I see it, is either Government protect their Workers and working class with benefits and wages, Like what many parts of Europe have done or they allow Union to do it. And i know this is considered an extremely unpopular opi…

Well, companies will just use more robots, fire more workets. Robots don't get unionized, they don't need health insurance or the gov't to step and protect them.

European economy is slow compared to the US due to high taxes, too much social protection and needless state meddling in the economy. If they introduce a tax on robots it will only get worse.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#146

Post by tedmiston »

consz wrote: post #20
soneca wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is in Brazil for the last ~5 years. And we don't even have Thanksgiving here. It is just one more made up date to create advertising campaigns. Started as a shy e-commerce thing here. Then became a huge e-commerce thing. Then a huge all commerce thing. I am seeing "Black Friday" promotions everywhere, from financial services to beauty treatments. A common joke here is that it is "Black Fraud - pay 50% of the doubl…

Doesn't the same thing occur in the US? I was under the impression it's always been set up so that there isn't any actual deals, just the appearance of it.

There are real deals too, but often with a catch "last year's flagship model for 50% off", or "buy x and get a $100 gift card to spend with us next year", etc. And for brick and mortar stores, even a decent discount may still be more than shopping online, especially considering out of state online stores don't charge sales tax.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#147

Post by good-econ1351 »

brndnmtthws wrote: post #23

Happy to hear workers are standing up for themselves. The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages over the past 50 years (check out Thomas Piketty's work if you're curious about this).

Really we need workers to stand up against socialists and commies trying to create an over bearing regulatory environment which will crush our economy, we must prevent the FUD from socialists, communists and other detractors of a prosperous society who claim to be 'friends of the workers'.

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#148

Post by jasode »

tw04 wrote: post #98
chimeracoder wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The anti-union FUD campaign in the US has contributed significantly to the erosion of middle class wages It's way more complicated than that, and it can't simply be dismissed as a "FUD campaign". Union members are actually disproportionately likely to support things like right-to-work laws, which unions dislike because it (more or less) means workers aren't obligated to be members if they choose not to. Similarly,…

>This pattern isn't as simple to dismiss as "anti-union FUD", especially since it's seen among people who are already union members in closed shops. You act as though anti-union FUD can't affect members. That's kind of ridiculous... if it didn't affect MEMBERS as well as non-members, what would be the point? If I'm a less-educated union member who has no concept of what life was like before unions, and constantly hea…

>For the average joe who just wants to go to work and get a paycheck, the bigger picture is often lost.

Isn't it possible the armchair talking heads like us are the ones missing the bigger picture and the actual workers are the ones who actually get it?

Let's consider the Boeing workers in South Carolina:

- 2009-09 74% of employees vote against the union and decertify it[1]

- 2009-10 Boeing breaks ground on new South Carolina plant to build 787 airplanes[2]

- 2017-02 again, 74% of employees vote against IAM union representation[3]

The "uncertainty" and "doubt" in "FUD"? The South Carolina workers are quite certain and have no doubt that in 2009, Seattle lost the extra 787 assembly work and it was given to SC workers without the union.

It's not irrational that SC workers fear the loss of jobs in Seattle could happen to them. The upcoming 797[4] model is in the works. It's not irrational for South Carolina workers to think that unionizing for better wages will move that 797 production elsewhere. (E.g. Seattle may end up losing all of the 787 production.[5])

>Well that was 50 years ago,

Well, the struggle & benefits gained 50 years ago is an abstraction. The events of 2009 are very fresh and real in the minds of workers.

Voting "YES" for a union doesn't necessarily mean you get a wage increase. It means (1) you might get a wage increase or (2) you might have no job.

How does a worker properly weigh those possible outcomes?

[1] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein...

[2] http://www.nbcnews.com/id/33521235/ns/business-us_business/t...

[3] https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boein...

[4] http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/20/news/companies/boeing-797-pa...

[5] http://www.heraldnet.com/news/future-of-boeings-787-seems-se...

Re: Workers at Amazon's main Italian hub, German warehouses strike on Black Friday

#149

Post by good-econ1351 »

djsumdog wrote: post #53
oblio wrote: post #4

Now that's something I haven't heard about in the US for a few decades: strikes. I'm partly kidding, but have there been any major strikes in the US lately?

Strikers in US media are often belittled. Think back to the Occupy Movement. The banks were bailed out, none of those people who caused so much misery were ever put in jail, and the media belittled Occupy as being directionless and pointless. The protest was huge, stretching across cities and countries, but there was never any accountability for the banksters. It shows again as the Equifax execs were cleared of insid…

The occupy movement - you mean the one where there were mass rapes within the encampments? Where the average protestor wouldn't know equity from stock options.
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