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I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

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Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#81

Post by en-us »

fpisfun wrote: post #56

To be honest I had started to hate programming and the industry overall until I started learning functional programming and about category theory, etc. It turns out I've been working on crap my whole career, at least in my opinion, and that's why most of my time has been spent fixing bugs, slowly adding new features while working around horrible design. Working on crappy software with crappy design and crappy develop…

I couldn't agree more.

I've read that the people most satisfied in life are craftsmen who dedicate themselves to mastering a craft. There is not much craft in managing deadlines and customer commitments and such. It is necessary work but it is not creative.

On the other hand, crafting code is a creative activity. Even for the simplest projects you can appreciate the structure, and learn about the varying tradeoffs in complexity that are made by any particular design pattern. This type of thing is a very rich craft, and very satisfying to master.

The good news for us is that mastering this craft translates into satisfied deadlines and confidence in ability to deliver on customer commitments. We can be master craftsmen and be nearly guaranteed success in the knowledge economy, which is not a luxury of other crafts like art and writing.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#82

Post by derwiki »

gjvc wrote: post #31
watwut wrote: post #10

The realization that people I considered friends never really have been after that memo got to me too. They might like my presence, but I don't really count as a women should be to them and they never considered me good as they pretended to. Good thing I don't always get subtle social clues I guess. But the rest sounds like burnout. Old programmers I see around had all learned not to let companies burn them out.

> "Old programmers I see around had all learned not to let companies burn them out." Great observation. Did you ever have any of those "old programmers" offer you any advice in this respect?

Not sure if I’m considered an “old programmer”, but a few things I’ve learned:

* don’t use work email on your smartphone unless it’s required

* don’t take your work laptop home unless it’s required

* have something else going on in your weekdays. For me it’s the gym/yoga, for my (programmer) wife it’s taking ceramics classes

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#83

Post by krapp »

hub2017 wrote: post #77
jib wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shittier jobs I've had than a desk job: 5-6 hours a day biking in -15C snow with wet feet (Mailman). 8 hours a day moving chips one by one in and out of an EPROM writer because it was cheaper to have me do that than pay the extra 2c to have them preprogrammed. The chips were 25c without programming and 27c with. (Ericson subcontractor). And I am privileged as hell, coming from Sweden with a good education and a famil…

You are absolutely not privileged at all - either you, your family or your nation worked hard for that.

>your family or your nation worked hard for that

That is the definition of being privileged.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#84

Post by derwiki »

arkh wrote: post #79
gjvc wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Old programmers I see around had all learned not to let companies burn them out." Great observation. Did you ever have any of those "old programmers" offer you any advice in this respect?

"The only pressure you get is the one you accept". Just learn to say no. I think that's the most important thing women and shy people need to learn. No. "You should work late to show your commitment". "No". "We over-promised so it is crunch time". "No". "Here is a company phone so we can contact you easily in case of emergency". "No". And sleeping enough every day is one of the most important things you can do. And f…

Really good advice. I think the perception is that if we say no we’ll be screamed at and fired. In reality your manager is more likely to become more flustered than you.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#85

Post by fbonetti »

ablomen wrote: post #17

Coming from a country with cushy laws on the side of employees etc (the Netherlands), and as a male, I can say that I can really identify with the opening paragraphs of this piece. When I started as all round IT guy 10 years ago it felt like a dream, getting payed for doing what I was doing anyway. And the first 4 years of turning in to a web developer was fun and challenging. But after a while the shine wears off an…

Thank you for sharing this. While it's good to be appreciative of our relative privilege in this market compared to other labor markets, it's nice to hear people admit that being a software engineer does nothing for your social or emotional growth. Sitting in front of screen day after day with little social interaction or meaningful collaboration takes a toll on you, no matter how much you're getting paid.

My exit plan is to become a landlord. I love fixing houses and there's something very satisfying about being able to physically experience the product of your work (unlike software, which is mostly abstract). I will probably need to work for another 5 years in order to build up enough rental income in order to justify quitting this industry, but it will be worth it. I would be absolutely miserable if I had to write software for the rest of my life.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#86

Post by jungletime »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #30

I don’t agree with James Damore’s writing, but he never said that women were there because the bar was lowered. He said that the reason there are less women in tech is due to the fact that the way it’s set up right now makes it less interesting or desirable for most women, and he suggested ways to change the nature of programming jobs and how programming is done in order to naturally attract more women to the field.…

Programming can be incredibly tedious. I often wonder why men want to do it. Why is it controversial that women find doing other things more compelling and interesting? Look at the subjects given a choice, chose at University. Isn't it a win for society when people get to do what they're interested i and passionate in. Instead of being shoehorned into some position that they hate.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#87

Post by derwiki »

claudiulodro wrote: post #51
jameskegel wrote: post #11

I read the article; I'm not sure this is so much a criticism of the industry as it is an examination of this developer's personal anecdotal experience. As developers, we lead a very charmed life that others sometimes aren't even born with the chance to intellectually compete for; the author neglects to address how lucky we are to be able to do this at all, let alone to then find employment in it. If it's not an indus…

I was a furniture upholsterer. It was super interesting, good exercise, and really required a lot of analytic thinking. I loved upholstery. However, I wasn't able to support a wife and kid on an upholsterer's paycheck. An employee upholsterer starts at $10/hour for a junior up to a high-range of $20/hr for 10+ years experience. Now I'm a software developer making multiples higher more income. I like it OK and I can p…

> cushy life

Nice upholstery pun :D

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#88

Post by hub2017 »

krapp wrote: post #83
hub2017 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are absolutely not privileged at all - either you, your family or your nation worked hard for that.

>your family or your nation worked hard for that That is the definition of being privileged.

Not in a negative sense he implied.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#89

Post by pfarnsworth »

zimablue wrote: post #45
pfarnsworth wrote: post #30

I don’t agree with James Damore’s writing, but he never said that women were there because the bar was lowered. He said that the reason there are less women in tech is due to the fact that the way it’s set up right now makes it less interesting or desirable for most women, and he suggested ways to change the nature of programming jobs and how programming is done in order to naturally attract more women to the field.…

He didn't directly, but if you believe his main point that differences in gender balance of developers is due to preference and natural aptitude, then it's an unavoidable conclusion that a company trying to both hire the best developers in the world and have a 50-50 gender split has to lower the bar. He didn't say it because he didn't have to, it's an unavoidable conclusion.

That is absolutely incorrect. First off he never said anything about natural aptitude. That is patently false. You didn’t read the article or you read it poorly.

He said change the nature of programming jobs. Make it more social, more collaborative (ie pair programming), better work life balance, etc. Having people sitting in a chair for 8-10 hours a day 7 days a week with high stress and terrible work life balance is the type of job that many women will naturally not be attracted to. It’s exactly what OP was complaining about.

Take the types of jobs that naturally appeal to many women and change the nature of programming jobs to fit those attributes and how you can achieve 50/50 balance.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#90

Post by kazinator »

jib wrote: post #40
jameskegel wrote: post #11

I read the article; I'm not sure this is so much a criticism of the industry as it is an examination of this developer's personal anecdotal experience. As developers, we lead a very charmed life that others sometimes aren't even born with the chance to intellectually compete for; the author neglects to address how lucky we are to be able to do this at all, let alone to then find employment in it. If it's not an indus…

Shittier jobs I've had than a desk job: 5-6 hours a day biking in -15C snow with wet feet (Mailman). 8 hours a day moving chips one by one in and out of an EPROM writer because it was cheaper to have me do that than pay the extra 2c to have them preprogrammed. The chips were 25c without programming and 27c with. (Ericson subcontractor). And I am privileged as hell, coming from Sweden with a good education and a famil…

I don't see how the 2c saving per chip, multiplied by any reasonable number of chips a person can swap in and out could pay for the work (in the so-called developed world, at that)? There are other good reasons to be doing that, like nearly instant turnaround time if a change in the firmware occurs in early production runs.
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