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I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

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Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#71

Post by derwiki »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #57
johnrichardson wrote: post #6

In my experience, it's counterproductive to code more than 4-5 hours per day. At a certain point you start introducing bugs/inadvertent complexity whose negatives outweigh any feature contributions you're making. There's lots of research which bears this out. E.g., https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/why-working-more-than-4...

I've been working 3-4 hour days for years now, however the only reason I can do this is because I work for myself.

The other option is to show up at your job for 40 hours/week but only put in 15-20. Especially in software, where one engineer can be 10x more productive than another, one can easily get away with this.

(I’m not advocating this, just pointing out that it is a strategy I’ve seen employed)

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#72

Post by tzahola »

johnwheeler wrote: post #41

I’ve held jobs where I was able to work on only greenfield projects with minimal oversight and the ability to put in 3-4 hour days if I wanted to, and I’ve held jobs like the blog post author’s, working on hellish enterprise CMSes. I can say the former is incomparably better and makes you grow into a stronger, more fulfilled engineer. I think as long as I could support myself financially and keep living somewhat comf…

>I was able to work on only greenfield projects with minimal oversight

I'm pretty sure those enterprise CMSes started out like this too...

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#74

Post by cyberpunk0 »

ironjunkie wrote: post #19
jaymzcampbell wrote: post #4

I feel like we as an industry can sometimes forget just how good we have it. Many of my friends do not work in tech, they are low paid, they have stressful jobs with little autonomy, they are not challenged at all and they feel little personal accomplishment in their day today. I appreciate the author alludes to this but having seen friends recently job hunting (outside of tech) I am reminded that even on the worst d…

This. I find it very difficult to complain as a coder given the conditions at the moment. Companies battle to hire people and the pay is globally extremely good. Most of the time it is easy to get time off or to accommodate "errands" during the day. As you said, I think a lot of us are out of touch about what it is to get a job outside of tech (and a couple other high demand privileged examples). You want to work fro…

No they compete for unicorns. Normal developers who were privileged enough to be born in silicon valley and go to mit/Stanford/Caltech and aren't willing to work 16 out 24 hours of the day might as well not apply because you just get told to fuck off in every application

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#75

Post by cup-of-tea »

ssijak wrote: post #64
cup-of-tea wrote: post #26

> I just found out some guy who does the same work as me is getting paid 20% more. Yeah and there's probably some guy getting paid 20% less than you for the same job and some woman getting paid 100% for an easier job. Maybe it's best to quit software if you don't even understand basic statistics. This is a great profession which pays very well and has very flexible hours. Go shovel shit if you want. The author just d…

From my experience, people comparing wages like that (without any analysis) are just angry people who are not satisfied by anything. If you would gave him 20% raise, he would find something else to complain. In my company I would cut lose from such people immediately.

I think so too. The disrespectful tone ("some guy") is very apparent in the article too.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#76

Post by sidlls »

tboyd47 wrote: post #50
ironjunkie wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I find it very difficult to complain as a coder given the conditions at the moment. Companies battle to hire people and the pay is globally extremely good. Most of the time it is easy to get time off or to accommodate "errands" during the day. As you said, I think a lot of us are out of touch about what it is to get a job outside of tech (and a couple other high demand privileged examples). You want to work fro…

The churn rate is also high on most software teams. In some cases, successful companies struggle to find candidates because all the good people have worked there before and ran away. One of the brightest developers I've worked with quit after 3 weeks at my company because they were underpaying her and wouldn't give her a raise. This same company complained regularly of not being able to find good talent. Employers th…

> Why do you think half of software projects fail to deliver?

A number of reasons:

1. Bikeshedding over the tech stack

2. A glut of CS grads who see a bunch of nails to hit with their textbook and data structures and algorithms knowledge failing to engage in a proper engineering process

3. Poorly defined requirements (blame aplenty to go around here: product development giving insufficient thought to the product details, sales over promising, and "engineers" failing to contribute by treating partnering with these folks as an onerous chore rather than a necessary task)

4. Insufficient resources

And many more, I'm sure.

Developers aren't blameless, here. In fact over the last couple of years I've come to see them as being at least as much to blame as non-technical people, perhaps even more so.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#77

Post by hub2017 »

jib wrote: post #40
jameskegel wrote: post #11

I read the article; I'm not sure this is so much a criticism of the industry as it is an examination of this developer's personal anecdotal experience. As developers, we lead a very charmed life that others sometimes aren't even born with the chance to intellectually compete for; the author neglects to address how lucky we are to be able to do this at all, let alone to then find employment in it. If it's not an indus…

Shittier jobs I've had than a desk job: 5-6 hours a day biking in -15C snow with wet feet (Mailman). 8 hours a day moving chips one by one in and out of an EPROM writer because it was cheaper to have me do that than pay the extra 2c to have them preprogrammed. The chips were 25c without programming and 27c with. (Ericson subcontractor). And I am privileged as hell, coming from Sweden with a good education and a famil…

You are absolutely not privileged at all - either you, your family or your nation worked hard for that.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#78

Post by iamleppert »

I too am planning my departure from the tech industry. I've been at several major startups in the bay area and I've worked for large tech companies.

I'm one of those people who are completely self-taught and passionate about technology, and I'm good at what I do. For me its a creative outlet. However, the dark side to this is that I'm frequently taken advantage of. And like the author in the article, I often work alongside people who couldn't care less or be bothered with this stuff. To them, its just a job, and they are masters at putting in the least amount of effort. They'll look at you with some kind of wonderment and incredulity and question why you even care at all.

Working in big tech (and some startups) were the worst. You had very little creativity, and there are plenty of other engineers devoid of any ounce of talent that will be quick to identity you as different than them and summarily drown you in dozens of pointless code review comments to stall your work and demotivate you. You'll often be forced to work with antique tools, ancient code bases and languages you hate and that have no future. Throw in a territorial devops person and a manager who treats you like a basic I/O device for shits and giggles.

If you have a vision for anything you want to build, or have an idea, better forget it. You better not collide with your product manager or the loads of management above you that don't actually contribute in any meaningful way to the actual product. They'll isolate you from customers and if you do come up with something original they will work to make sure you don't get any recognition for your accomplishments.

Sometimes it won't even matter if you're an early employee at a startup that is successful. The investors will just bring in all their own management and put you in jail anyway. If you're lucky once you quit or get fired you might be able to only get away with paying $15k or $20k to exercise your worthless, unsaleable options. This entire industry is a pathetic joke. I'm passionate about it still but I only like working on my own projects and ideas.

Eventually, you just give up. Its better to work in another industry, I'm trying to get into the art/design industry myself.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#79

Post by arkh »

gjvc wrote: post #31
watwut wrote: post #10

The realization that people I considered friends never really have been after that memo got to me too. They might like my presence, but I don't really count as a women should be to them and they never considered me good as they pretended to. Good thing I don't always get subtle social clues I guess. But the rest sounds like burnout. Old programmers I see around had all learned not to let companies burn them out.

> "Old programmers I see around had all learned not to let companies burn them out." Great observation. Did you ever have any of those "old programmers" offer you any advice in this respect?

"The only pressure you get is the one you accept". Just learn to say no. I think that's the most important thing women and shy people need to learn. No.

"You should work late to show your commitment". "No".

"We over-promised so it is crunch time". "No".

"Here is a company phone so we can contact you easily in case of emergency". "No".

And sleeping enough every day is one of the most important things you can do. And finding a job in a good company even if you earn a little less.

Re: I don’t want to be a software developer anymore

#80

Post by tboyd47 »

retSava wrote: post #60
tboyd47 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have to like your job, but it's perfectly reasonable to expect equitable treatment and a non-hazardous work setup. Injuries from bad ergonomics are real. I am dealing with a pinched nerve in my neck from 10 years of this and some days can barely sit up straight. I get that there are people starving in China. It's not an issue of wanting a perfect job. I actually used to really enjoy my work before the pain…

The author says she didn't bring it up since she was afraid it would negatively impact her career. While I can certainly understand this is a real fear that is grounded in reality, I also feel that she has a responsibility to lift the issue internally to get appropriate furniture, tools (eg ergonomic keyboard), and treatment.

You can only expect to be taken seriously for requests like that if you have been diagnosed with a medical condition. By then, you've already experienced significant pain, so the damage has been done.

Ergonomics for developers is difficult. Damage sets in so slowly that you don't really notice it until it's too late.

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