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To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

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Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#91

Post by DiThi »

qanjl wrote: post #90
DiThi wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most countries like to copy the most successful country on Earth. You probably think of things like software patents, that were rejected in the EU. But that was a very long fight! I hope we don't even have to _start_ the net neutrality fight in the EU, by winning it outside.

>Most countries like to copy the most successful country on Earth. Countries with free and universal healthcare: 117. Countries with free (but not universal) healthcare: 39. Countries with universal (but not free) healthcare: 2. Countries who copied the USA in having neither free nor universal healthcare: 42. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_univers... Countries who voted in favour of the United N…

My choice of words may not be good, but other countries (esp. allies) copied MANY more things than things they didn't copy, esp. with topics related to NN... Copyright law, patents, free speech, and internet itself... and the fight against software patents was long and difficult.

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#92

Post by notacoward »

jrs235 wrote: post #87
notacoward wrote: post #85

I'm in favor of network neutrality myself. My main criticism is that it doesn't go far enough , in that it only requires neutrality from network providers to content providers but not vice versa or like-to-like. But I do have a serious question for other supporters. How can so many of those who are usually anti-regulatory "free market" extremists also be so strongly in favor of this regulation? * This is their theory…

>How can so many of those who are usually anti-regulatory "free market" extremists also be so strongly in favor of this regulation? Because in the US, network providers (at least the last mile providers; those charging end consumers) are local monopolies. Most people in the US have one legit high speed internet option, a few have two. There is little competition and the barriers to entry for new comers is very high (…

I'm not convinced that such local monopolies change the equation here. Access to the internet might be a right, but is unlimited access to Netflix a right? A monopoly on essentials must be regulated, because there's no market elasticity (and the extremists often deny even that). A monopoly on entertainment, though? Even a monopoly is constrained in how much in can charge for such a thing before customers just walk away.

Network Neutrality(tm) isn't about constraining these monopolies. It doesn't even address the issues of price gouging or discrimination against consumers. If that's what we want, there are whole different sets of laws to talk about. The regulations currently at issue only seem to address concerns orthogonal to those related to monopolies.

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#93

Post by ShabbosGoy »

sundaeofshock wrote: post #83
DiThi wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By what criteria is the USA "most successful country on earth"? Power, influence, GDP. Things that matter to politicians, which are the ones that get to choose these matters.

US soft power and influence are waning (e.g. gutting if the state department) and the US consumer is about to take a hit with a massive transfer of wealth to the super rich. Even with the hard military power, I don’t see how the US is the “most successful country on earth”.

Net neutrality has nothing to do with the consumer. Very specifically, it has to do with peering and PNIs. There's a reason why NN is not a grassroots movement - it's literally corrupt corporations fighting each other over regulatory capture.

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#94

Post by jrs235 »

notacoward wrote: post #92
jrs235 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How can so many of those who are usually anti-regulatory "free market" extremists also be so strongly in favor of this regulation? Because in the US, network providers (at least the last mile providers; those charging end consumers) are local monopolies. Most people in the US have one legit high speed internet option, a few have two. There is little competition and the barriers to entry for new comers is very high (…

I'm not convinced that such local monopolies change the equation here. Access to the internet might be a right, but is unlimited access to Netflix a right? A monopoly on essentials must be regulated, because there's no market elasticity (and the extremists often deny even that). A monopoly on entertainment, though? Even a monopoly is constrained in how much in can charge for such a thing before customers just walk aw…

The ISPs (with their local market monopolies) are also content providers. How is them using their network/distribution monopoly to gain an unfair advantage for their content distribution different from Microsoft using their OS to gain an unfair advantage for their browser in the 90's? Isn't NN about constraining unfair competition practices?

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#95

Post by tpxl »

Zenka wrote: post #58
danetch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brussel actually enforces nn.

The EU enforces a less strict interpretation of NN. The Netherlands stricter law was therefore overruled with a softer version. This came to light when the ACM (The Dutch FCC if you will) fined T-Mobile for applying a zero rating on music streaming. T-Mobile argues in court they are allowed to do so by EU rule. The Judge agreed. https://www.wirelessweek.com/news/2017/04/t-mobile-netherlan...

As far as I know country law can be more strict than EU law, is that not so? In that case, the stricter law could not have been overruled with EU laws.

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#96

Post by rebuilder »

akerro wrote: post #46
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be clear on something. "The Internet" doesn't care how Americans go about ruining their economy by prioritizing certain network traffic. As a Dutchie my Internet is largely unaffected by the FCC. If anything the FCC rejecting net neutrality may be a boon for investment in EU startups and might actually benefit the EU tech sector. So go right ahead and take a crap on yourself America. But let's be clear that the…

>As a Dutchie my Internet is largely unaffected by the FCC. You can't be more wrong. Since Netflix, Amazon, youporn, imgur, reddit will be affected by this and they will have to pay more to keep their bandwidth on the same level as now, or slower by only 10% (hey, they could slow down their network links by 60%, but since they pay 20M per year, its slower by only 10%!) you as the end, you the end consumer will have t…

So those companies move their servers out of the USA, which would be good anyway, or their competitirs get an edge.

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#97

Post by neom »

jrs235 wrote: post #94
notacoward wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced that such local monopolies change the equation here. Access to the internet might be a right, but is unlimited access to Netflix a right? A monopoly on essentials must be regulated, because there's no market elasticity (and the extremists often deny even that). A monopoly on entertainment, though? Even a monopoly is constrained in how much in can charge for such a thing before customers just walk aw…

The ISPs (with their local market monopolies) are also content providers. How is them using their network/distribution monopoly to gain an unfair advantage for their content distribution different from Microsoft using their OS to gain an unfair advantage for their browser in the 90's? Isn't NN about constraining unfair competition practices?

That is FTC not FCC.

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#98

Post by peatmoss »

notacoward wrote: post #85

I'm in favor of network neutrality myself. My main criticism is that it doesn't go far enough , in that it only requires neutrality from network providers to content providers but not vice versa or like-to-like. But I do have a serious question for other supporters. How can so many of those who are usually anti-regulatory "free market" extremists also be so strongly in favor of this regulation? * This is their theory…

I too think this is an interesting question. I also think you’re hinting at what I believe as well, that networks are a classic case of economic good that make the preconditions for a free market nearly impossible.

Some people are so committed to the ideal of unfettered market conditions that they lose sight of whether such conditions are possible. Such people are normally immune to all reason when it comes to assessing the true potential for a market to exist.

So why the crack in the facade in this instance? I think Internet access is one of those areas where people accutely feel the obnoxious rent seeking behavior of monopolists on a day to day basis.

As an aside, I do think it’s funny how much talk we hear of entrepreneurs seeking to create network effects with their products. To what end? Presumably to create another means—beyond simple competititve product fitness—to retain customers and extract value from them. You want network effects? Try owning an actual network, where there are first mover advantages, and huge barriers to market entry!

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#99

Post by rpedela »

notacoward wrote: post #92
jrs235 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How can so many of those who are usually anti-regulatory "free market" extremists also be so strongly in favor of this regulation? Because in the US, network providers (at least the last mile providers; those charging end consumers) are local monopolies. Most people in the US have one legit high speed internet option, a few have two. There is little competition and the barriers to entry for new comers is very high (…

I'm not convinced that such local monopolies change the equation here. Access to the internet might be a right, but is unlimited access to Netflix a right? A monopoly on essentials must be regulated, because there's no market elasticity (and the extremists often deny even that). A monopoly on entertainment, though? Even a monopoly is constrained in how much in can charge for such a thing before customers just walk aw…

I don't know if internet access is a "right", but it is pretty important in a modern society because internet access equals information access. It is hard to be an informed, productive participant in a modern society without information. Therefore unlimited access to Google search is a better example than Netflix.

Re: To Save Net Neutrality, We Must Build Our Own Internet

#100

Post by jrs235 »

neom wrote: post #97
jrs235 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ISPs (with their local market monopolies) are also content providers. How is them using their network/distribution monopoly to gain an unfair advantage for their content distribution different from Microsoft using their OS to gain an unfair advantage for their browser in the 90's? Isn't NN about constraining unfair competition practices?

That is FTC not FCC.

Fair enough. If the ISPs don't what to be liable for the content that traverses their network then they ought to be neutral to content and not prioritize traffic based on it's content (or source, destination, protocol, etc). But if they are inspecting the packets then they should have some liability for what they are delivering and the content on their network. The ISPs want it both ways like someone else mentioned, the want to control what people see but not be liable (responsible).
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