“I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business” • Hacker News Board

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#211

Post by jon_richards » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC

thelittleone wrote: post #97

ricardobeat wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not take the job for a year or two and have a (half) million to fund your startup?

I did consider it. But the lead partner jumped through some hoops to get me admitted directly as an outsider (I had never worked in a big four). To take that job with an intent to leave in a year or two would have reflected poorly on him and me.

I'm really curious why people are downvoting this.

I know there's a sentiment on hacker news that you should take advantage of a company when you can, because they won't hesitate to take advantage of you. Is it that?

It seems like at that level of compensation you are almost certainly in a small enough circle that any grudges you incur could severely affect you down the line.

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#212

Post by tom_mellior » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 1:55 PM UTC

jaymzcampbell wrote: post #207

tom_mellior wrote: post #203

This is very much of a tangent, but I was really surprised by this part: "At the beginning of the year I opted to buy an apartment for myself. [...] The developer behind the apartment did not do his job properly and I found myself having to pay for many things out of pocket (like getting electricity)." Where I live, nobody owning an apartment would ever expect not to have to get an individual contract with an electri…

I read that as the apartment was a new build of some sort and had not yet been connected to the main supply. So he was then left with that expense as the owner. I was surprised he paid for such an apartment, it sounds like he didn't get any sort of survey done before handing over funds/agreeing what would actually be completed before moving in. Combined with then quitting a job with so little savings I think this yea…

> a new build of some sort and had not yet been connected to the main supply

Yeah, that's a valid reading of the part that I quoted, and I would have interpreted it as such. Except that he then goes on to say that "the plug was pulled", implying (to me) that the bill for running consumption hadn't been paid.

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#213

Post by krapp » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #180

krapp wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes... the pitch seems confusing, and the game itself seems uninspired. I'd try a demo because this is the sort of thing I might like but I see nothing there worth paying for up front.

The first thing that rang alarm bells, for me, reading through this article was: > I even released a small 5 level demo on itch (can't afford to pay steam's 100$ fee to get a free version up on the platform) How much larger is Steam's market than itch's? I'm guessing the answer is "very". How many conversions do they need for the $100 to pay off? 20-30? Seems like a no-brainer to me, and not even being able to afford…

Also it seems he quit a job in gamedev to pursue this. He was already a professional in the industry, getting paid, and he was warned but jumped anyway.

It's like he went out of his way to do everything exactly wrong, knowing the chances of failure were against him even if he did everything right.

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#214

Post by fapjacks » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

Nokinside wrote: post #191

If you are poor, getting into business is always hard. Why so many famous actors and musicians come from wealthy families? Because they can afford to travel from auditioning to auditioning and promote themselves non-stop. Why do so many prestigious companies hire young only from wealthy families? Because they have non paid internships. Poor can't afford to get in. When you can't afford to lose, risk taking requires r…

Absolutely the truth. Starting my business was the most stressful and intense thing I have done in my life outside of combat, and I don't even have kids to support. Staring down the barrel of rent and bills with no one to back you up financially... It is incredibly intense. It seems common to have some kind of benefactor ready to throw a parachute if there's trouble. Which makes me think that's part of the reason I find I just can't connect with a lot of business owners out there. Hard to describe, but those people are from a different kind of substrate. In a similar way, I can sort of tell who is a combat veteran at parties.

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#215

Post by cheschire » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

TAForObvReasons wrote: post #193

zelos wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm just way too risk-averse, but 3-4 months of expenses in savings is what I'd consider a minimum while in a stable full-time job .

Forget 3 months, the rule of thumb is 6 months for an emergency fund

And twice your salary in a retirement fund by the age of 30, and three times your salary in retirement by 35.

Basically quit your day job only if your side hustle is already making more money per month (not per hour) because odds are even making more per month is still going to result in not being able to survive much past 57.

Side note, how many 57 year old indie game devs are there?

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#216

Post by danpalmer » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 2:00 PM UTC

1ammergeier wrote: post #48

I assume part of his problem is the Steam description - some of it reads like nonsense (the twist/USP makes no sense, “fervent goddess,” “20 levels of pure mishap”) and the rest is actually discouraging, describing it as “back-to-basics” (read: not many features) and literally has a section entitled “why you might not like this game”. Overall the concept is confusing. It’s a “coffee-break game” but also a really diff…

Even things like referring to the player as “him” – it seems small but it adds up and people notice it.

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#217

Post by BacioiuC » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 2:03 PM UTC

jaymzcampbell wrote: post #207

tom_mellior wrote: post #203

This is very much of a tangent, but I was really surprised by this part: "At the beginning of the year I opted to buy an apartment for myself. [...] The developer behind the apartment did not do his job properly and I found myself having to pay for many things out of pocket (like getting electricity)." Where I live, nobody owning an apartment would ever expect not to have to get an individual contract with an electri…

I read that as the apartment was a new build of some sort and had not yet been connected to the main supply. So he was then left with that expense as the owner. I was surprised he paid for such an apartment, it sounds like he didn't get any sort of survey done before handing over funds/agreeing what would actually be completed before moving in. Combined with then quitting a job with so little savings I think this yea…

Hi, OP here! Just now got around to check Hacker News and reply. The thing with the apartment is, I've wanted to buy one for a while and in Romania there's a state aid that allows you to buy one with just 15-25% advancement. At the beginning of the year I had enough money saved up for the advancement and I was making about 1.5K euros monthly through work and another side-gig.

The thing is, a salary in Romania outside of tech is between 300 - 600 euros. With most people who have non-tech jobs (cashier, seller, construction) and even some it jobs being on the low end of that spectrum (even lower). I was making 4 times what most people make. My first job as a game designer gave me about 400 euros. With a 200 euro mortgage nowadays and savings it was a no brainer to finish up the game in the remaining month working full time on it and release it. However there were some problems on the developers side:

- The building had power, via a contract with the local power energy and a written promise from the developer that he will handle all the legal documents to connect me to the power grid properly and handle all the payments.

- The same thing as above with gas.

A few weeks ago I received an e-mail informing me (and all people who owned property in the building) that the contract they had with the power company will expire and we need to get our paperwork sorted out. Now again, I met with the developer and have in writing the fact that he was to take care of things. It turns out, he did but he just applied for all the permits and did all the paperwork but he didn't pay for anything. And I got word of this 1 week before the plug was about to be pulled. In that situation I had to run and pay for everything so I can keep the power up and work on my things. And gas since we all use gas for heating here during the winter - same story.

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#218

Post by SolaceQuantum » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 2:03 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #199

cylinder wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't seem like a business story really, it seems like an artist / craftsman wanted to practice his craft and ran into commercial realities. It's a starving artist situation. There wasn't any market analysis, financial analysis, etc upfront. He wanted to make a game, and he did, so he should be commended for that. It wasn't really a business venture.

If it wasn't a business venture, then don't treat it like one. Needing sales means it's a business venture.

Unfortunately we don’t live in a society where people who are passionate about art can pursue their passions fully and avoid starving or otherwise risking their quality of life. In our society merely choosing to pursue your art to your fullest extent is considered a business venture and not an artistic venture, and even choosing not to because of money reasons is itself a business decision.

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#219

Post by repomies691 » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 2:03 PM UTC

bshimmin wrote: post #126

_s wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find digital consultancies / agencies always have spikes of work and they need folks to join in for a couple of weeks or months. Just make connections there - send in your cv, ask about part time positions etc. Agencies usually have one or two recruiters they trust so go and make friends with them too, chances are that recruiter is connected to a few other agencies and so forth. It’s all about networking though, an…

Bear in mind, to address the point about making money "quickly", that if you go direct to a digital agency, they will expect you to do a month's work, and then for you to send them an invoice with 28 day terms, and then they will pay when it pleases them to do so. So that might well be two months between sitting down at a desk and money actually appearing in your bank account - or it might be longer. (Speaking from e…

Well yeah it is in no way quickly in that sense, you need 1-2 months to actually receive the money. Unless otherwise agreed.

It comes down to have the savings, but as well to have low living expenses or otherwise lifestyle in a way where you can downgrade it when needed.

Re: “I thought I could ship at least 700 units to stay in business”

#220

Post by axisK » Thu, Nov 23, 2017, 2:04 PM UTC

hennsen wrote: post #197

flexie wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that I disagree, especially with the opinion that the gaming industry is over-saturated and that a lot depends on luck in that industry. But I'd say that 4 months worth of savings is in the better end when starting a new business. Most people who do startups or who otherwise become entrepreneurs have much less than that. And I think having too much of a cushion can lull you into a false sense of "doing somet…

And about that: > But if having 6 or 12 months worth of savings is a requirement, then you can rule out just about everyone except rich kids and upper middle class teenagers. If you’re a good Software developer and have no idea how to save some 20-30k bucks in 2-3 years for your plan of your own business you’re doing something wrong. Like you are bad at contract negotiations, no good contact network in the industry t…

I don't think life is that simple. Being a skilled developer/engineer has very little to do with the ability to save money.