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Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

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Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make the same argument about most programming languages. I hate to sound like I'm parroting Spolsky, but, he's right that the reason that the reason every developer ever wants to re-write the code they inherit is because it's easier to write code than it is to read it. It's obviously an exaggeration, but not by much.

the way i tell great developers from good developers is from how willing they are to dive into someone else's turd and make changes to it.

Oh god the years I spent on doing that with wireless drivers were a fucking nightmare.

Which I guess makes that test more about dedication and attitude than about raw skill.

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#392
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CFO of a company tells the staff of the company to stop using Excel; the CFOs of several companies tell the staffs of those companies to stop using Excel.

no its not Several CEO's (plural) tell their Staff (singular ) a CEO only has one set of employees. The headline implies that all the CEO's have multiple sets of staff

If the headline said that CFOs love their wifes, would that imply polygamy?

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#393
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first question was going to follow the poster above, and you answered it for me. I didn't realize Excel couldn't write back to the database. It shouldn't be too hard to develop an extension for that purpose, would it? Aside from that — what about MS cloud services? I mean, maybe that's not appropriate for healthcare or certain businesses, but for others it allows there to be a single source of truth if the workflo…

"I didn't realize Excel couldn't write back to the database. It shouldn't be too hard to develop an extension for that purpose, would it?" Well, more accurately, it can write back to the database, but normal usage of Excel won't afford that result. Normal usage of Excel you have an independent value. It is also a dubious proposition as to whether we want people to actually write back to the central database; you'd be…

There shouldn't be any risk if you have version control.

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#394
I was toying with this idea in the past, where cells would support, in addition to primitives(numbers, strings, whatever) and functions, a new type which would be identified by a reverse domain name notation path/key (e.g org.hr.employees.cnt), and optionally a comma separated (key-value) pairs as arguments.

Whenever a value for such a unique (key, arguments) cell would be required, the application would collect all such that need updates -- or, you could click a button to update them all --, create a message that would contain all paths and arguments, and auth info (each user would require to authenticate with some centralized system, so that the auth key would be used for that RPC, and that the service could check for authentication and authorization ), call out to some service and get values for each of those cells (value could depend on the authenticated user, or could even be denied depending on privileges ).

Furthermore, the application would cache each such cell value (auth key, resource path, arguments digest, value) and it would periodically update them, or do so on demand (so that you can use it say on a plane, and refresh them when you land). That’s the gist of it, but there’s more to it and there are some optimization opportunities I am ignoring here, but it could work.

Then again, for all I know, there are already such services, or apps that kind of do this sort of thing.

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#395
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree. It's common to tell kids (and everyone) that they need to "learn to code." That is what Excel already is! And it's incredibly powerful, especially if you don't have any other coding skills. But, of course, it's messy. When tens of millions of people can each write their own programs and easily modify them and change them to suit their own needs without needing to recompile or anything, then you get…

> ...and, in fact, that's also what you'd get if you taught everyone how to program Python in high school instead of Excel. I disagree. Python leaves a readable instruction set, while Excel buries the logic in an opaque two dimensional grid of cells (plus or minus atrocious VBA). I think this gives a better ladder for people to improve their skills to the point of not producing unmaintainable garbage.

> Excel buries the logic in an opaque two dimensional grid of cells (plus or minus atrocious VBA)

Yes, mixing the good old Excel dependency tree together with VBA macros creates truly dreadful and opaque spreadsheets.

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#396
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every spreadsheet shared in a business is an angel announcing another SaaS app still needs to be built. Really? I am working in company which is not handling super-sensitive data (i.e. not a Bank, for example) but I can assure you that if went around proposing to adopt a SAAS for what Excel is used internally I would not get very far. No matter how good you are as a SAAS provider, our data stay in-house. End of sto…

Many people on HN make the jump from "I would not buy that" to "There is not a market for that", but there is, in fact, a market for SaaSifying lots of things. It's no value judgement if you want to continue using Excel for privacy, compliance, or security reasons. You do you. But SaaS companies get very good at developing privacy, compliance, and security stories, particularly as they move into enterprise. (Below en…

I agree with this. I work with a SaaS company that is also a use case for this scenario (www.Zenkit.com) and we haven't had too much push back on security. The cloud is so much more secure than it was a few years ago. On-premise is often less secure now than the cloud. If your company is still using Excel though, you probably wouldn't know that.

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#397
post #385
post #22

The phrases "avoid data silos" and "we want single source of truth" have been used repeatedly about Excel misuse/abuse/overuse for 20+ years. The WSJ story talks about the complaint but not about the underlying tension between data redundancy vs data manipulation. Excel endures because it's the non-programmer's REPL for data. Like a Lisp REPL, using Excel is nimble and has an instant feedback loop. Click "A-Z" to sor…

Excel endures because it's the non-programmer's REPL for data. Like a Lisp REPL, using Excel is nimble and has an instant feedback loop. Click "A-Z" to sort ascending, click "Z-A" to sort descending. Move/hide/freeze columns. If one has intermediate-to-advanced skills, one can pivot the data on multiple axis. None of the centralized systems with even the slickest web GUIs can match Excel's capabilities. What about Bu…

Excel offers a few things in most scenarios, primarily because that any enforced structure always implies lost flexibility, and one of the issues often quoted with Excel is the lack of enforcement of using the right structures and data sources.

A simple one: If I have been asked to do a report, but it turns out I don't have the correct access rights to some data, my manager can simply send it to me in an Excel sheet, or he can log an issue with IT to change the acess rights to a specific key/dimension/hierarchy.

The 'one true data source' move often correspond to tighter access controls when good auditing really would have been the correct solution, hence the above situation is fairly common.

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#398
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing because of 1) lack of built in logging, 2) lack of change control and 2) difficult to automate testing and verification (because of it's relatively unstructured nature). Excel as the source of truth for a financial system is particularly scary to me b/c it's so easy for someone/anyone to change entries or miscalculate so it's very difficult for me to get confidence in its completeness and correctness. Co…

Logging: I just save a copy of the spreadsheet every time I make a tax filing. Do I need anything more fine-grained? Validation: I'm confident that I can catch duplicated rows and mistyped amounts because Excel formulas verify that the sum of all transactions for each account equals the account balance, and that transfers between accounts add up to $0. Do I need anything more? Point-in-time doesn't work because I nee…

This doesn't scale well. If only one person edits the spreadsheet and that person knows how to save copies and make sure there is only one latest version it may work. If you give this to 10 people they will start making copies, saving those with different names ans save the copies on some server or on their own machines and after a while you don't have a single source of truth anymore. And you almost never have logging when many people edit copies of Excel documents.

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#399
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every spreadsheet shared in a business is an angel announcing another SaaS app still needs to be built. Really? I am working in company which is not handling super-sensitive data (i.e. not a Bank, for example) but I can assure you that if went around proposing to adopt a SAAS for what Excel is used internally I would not get very far. No matter how good you are as a SAAS provider, our data stay in-house. End of sto…

Many people on HN make the jump from "I would not buy that" to "There is not a market for that", but there is, in fact, a market for SaaSifying lots of things. It's no value judgement if you want to continue using Excel for privacy, compliance, or security reasons. You do you. But SaaS companies get very good at developing privacy, compliance, and security stories, particularly as they move into enterprise. (Below en…

Yes - I agree, the point is that most of the time an Excel "app" is solving a very specific problem using data coming from some other (internally managed, usually legacy) system. Like: I run a report, transform the result in .csv with some ultraedit macro, slurp it up in Excel and off I go.

(off I go can often being something like: upload the result to the same or a different legacy system, again in some custom format).

Maybe I can pester my own IT dept. to add an extra option to the report so that it spouts off a .csv directly. That's all, the rest still lives in Excel.

Then I am free to play with data as much as I like (take also in account that in some cases you want these in a Excel just to be able to manipulate them better, while the old app works record by record, you can make changes across a thousand records using the Excel interface... and keep also in mind that this is maybe something you need to do once or twice a year, when you renew your catalog prices or whatever).

Now, what is the cost of:

- going out on the market looking for a SAAS that can get my data exactly in the format I use internally, applies the required transformations and send the result back in a format I can use

- assess that the SAAS vendor is indeed trustable for my desired level of security, SOX compliance, etc.

- add one more vendor to my portfolio of vendors/licenses/purchasing orders

So the reason not to go to SAAS is actually a combination of security/external resource dependency/cost/bureacracy.

Where "cost" is mostly inertia+sunk cost fallacy. I am sure that a SAAS may cost less than the hours spent manually doing all the stuff I mentioned above (including mantaining the Excel spreadsheet) but the latter is a "hidden cost" because it something that happens infrequently and is part of the normal chores of whoever is using the Excel sheet itself.

While introducing a new SAAS app will be an IT cost (to identify/approve it, add a recurring subscription etc.)

Re: Stop Using Excel, Finance Chiefs Tell Staffs

#400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are upsides to excel in cases like that… The health insurance people of various sorts who use this setup are the ones with domain knowledge. With an excel program, they can (1) understand how it works (2) add to it, modify it (3) create a copy and break it (4) debug it (5) have ideas about how it could work differently… I’m not saying that excel is the tool for the job (sounds like it is definitely not), and th…

| I am saying that we should be curious at why they are doing it this way. If you hand a caveman a machine gun, he will club you to death with it. IOW, the casual ability for domain experts to screw up a spreadsheet is enough of a reason to decide that excel is a terrible solution to this problem.

I would make a different caveman analogy. Hand a caveman a gun. He probably won't be a better rifleman than you (or someone). Really bad form and technique. But, he'll probably be a way better hunter than you, shoddy rifle technique or not.

Caveman were better than you at a lot of things. They knew how to find squirrels

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