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Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

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361–370 of 388 posts

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#361

Is anyone actually against net neutrality? I don't think I've ever seen a con argument.

The arguments against net neutrality often focus on crappy connections; on 3G networks and early DSL it was common to have rate limits, which made people be very careful with how much internet they used, and/or additional fees above a certain bandwidth usage - similar to utilities like electricity and water (although IDK why there was never really much pay-per-megabyte internet, usually it's a flat fee). The argument…

> Google gave it a good try with their fiber service, but had to give up - probably underestimating how expensive it is, or they were blocked by the existing ISPs that didn't tolerate competition.

Google gave up partly thanks to ALEC lobbying and laws, probably lobbied for via the incumbent regional ISPs.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#362
post #300

The battle is all but over, and Net Neutrality lost. Republicans control every branch of the government.

I don't even understand how this became a bi-partisan issue. Everyone I know, republican and democrat, are for NN. The only people that are against NN are convinced it was introduced by Obama in order to "socialize the internet"

Do you know anyone who bought a T-Mobile plan that allows them to "binge on" unlimited Netflix while charging a per-gigabyte rate for other data? That's zero-rating, which is against net neutrality.

The scary images of tiered Internet packages from Portugal and Indonesia that are being passed around are also about zero-rating. They are really no different from mobile plans we have in the US, except that their advertising happens to be more brutally honest.

People like net neutrality as an abstract principle when it's described to them, but many people will gladly personally give it up to watch a TV series.

To be clear, I think this is a bad thing. I think zero-rating is anti-competitive. But there are people who love it. That's what it means to be against net neutrality.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also aren't a democracy, so not really relevant.

What does the system of government has to do with what is relevant to an argument like this? China is not a democracy so it is irrelevant that they are the leading economy on the planet?

China is not a democracy so it is fundamentally irrelevant how they legislate their internet policies, correct.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#365
In the mean time, and in related news (media all quiet) - the "USA Liberty Act of 2017" has passed meaning government is allowed to search our private data without a warrant:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/3989...

Some more details here: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/usa-liberty-act-wont-f...

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There really isn't a sound argument against net neutrality. Many do argue that the FCC shouldn't have the authority to regulate the internet, and often argue that idea to subtly change the subject. If someone argues to abolish something, they should either argue in favor of a replacement, or argue that that thing should not exist at all. Unfortunately, I haven't heard even a flawed version of either argument. Another…

I think there is a more nuanced libertarian argument that you haven't mentioned, and that is not so much "I am against all regulation" as much as "I think regulation is generally bad for efficiency and/or disagree with it on moral grounds so I want to be convinced why it is necessary." In other words, I want to be convinced that: 1) There is a problem here at all. The regulation that is being repealed was only introd…

I'll bite.

1) There is a problem here at all. The regulation that is being repealed was only introduced 2 years ago; how did we get along before that?

Yes, there is a problem here. ISPs have already started overstepping the bounds by extorting money from Netflix. T-mobile has a plan out right now that gives you unlimited Netflix, but rate limits everything else. This is a violation of the principles of Net Neutrality.

Yes, there is a problem.

There wasn't much of one before, because the ISPs were very careful not to upset the balance. In the past five years though, they've started seeing what they can get away with. Net Neutrality regulation is a response to the ISPs testing the waters.

2) This problem can be solved by this regulation (not all regulation achieves its goals, and sometimes it is even counter productive).

Probably. It's fairly easy to say "all ISPs have to treat all packets the same." Then have yearly audits of internal routing infrastructure.

3) Regulation is the best/only solution for this problem (what other solutions to the problem described in 1 have been proposed, and why are they not suitable)

I don't believe regulation IS the best solution. Not so much because the regulation itself is bad, but because each set of people who get into power have a different idea of what the regulations should look like, so it ping-pongs back and forth ad-infinitum.

I think the best solution is for towns to build municipal fiber that competes with existing ISPs. The infrastructure could be rented out to local ISPs who compete on the publicly-owned lines. If Comcast wants to charge people out the ass for shitty service that rate limits (or hell, censors) certain websites, go for it...but there are 20 other local companies who give faster speeds for cheaper prices that support Net Neutrality.

The problem is, Comcast generally stops this kind of market competition from happening via propaganda campaigns and jamming through state laws that prohibit it. A municipality entering the market is still a free-market competition, so it should be an option supported by libertarians.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#367

Can anyone in the US explain why the government/FCC is so eager to abandon net netrality laws? Was it demanded by the electorate? A promise in a manifesto or something? I remember the topic of NN coming up a few years ago and was largely defeated after public outcry - has public mood changed since then?

In the most simple of terms the Trump Administration is pro capitalism and strongly anti-regulatory.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pai merely proposes ... This is met with furious uproar His proposal would enable ISPs to make access to some content slower, or more expensive, than others. His proposal does nothing to resolve existing broadband monopolies. Many people like the way the internet works today and do not want Pai's policies to pass. We don't want more silos or limited access to content. People are making their voices heard because th…

Do you not fear that regulatory capture would leave us with the worst of both worlds?

We're in a state of regulatory right now and it is a worse world. It's not hypothetical

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#369
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter to free basics is why didn't Facebook just provide free full internet with heavy branding and advertising to encourage Facebook use? Did they have some Indian competitor they were scared of? I have a hard time seeing how it would be that much more expensive.

Facebook branding on their internet would be against net neutrality: facebook would then be changing other websites.

I think they mean heavy branding in person to customers.

Re: Join the Battle for Net Neutrality

#370
post #301

The battle is all but over, and Net Neutrality lost. Republicans control every branch of the government.

That's a false equivalence -- Not all Republicans want to end Net Neutrality. However it is super duper lame that a ton of politicians blindly follow party lines. Sigh.

First, I don't think you understand what the term "false equivalence" means.

But leaving that aside, I didn't say all Republicans are against Net Neutrality. I'm sure some are in favor of it, just like you can find the odd pro-choice or gay Republican. But the Republican Party as a whole is against NN, and has been very vocal about wanting to get rid of it. Republicans said "If we get elected we're going to get rid of Net Neutrality," and then they got elected. So, you know, no surprise here.

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